Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

chocolate

pudding
pops

Pages: 1 ... 1331 1332 [1333] 1334 1335 ... 3524

Author Topic: MSPA Homestuck  (Read 5128982 times)

Frajic

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19980 on: February 09, 2011, 09:21:42 am »

haha Vriska is gonna die REAL quick.
That she is.

Hmm, at first I welcomed the fact that she had character again, with Spidermom coming up again. Then felt a cold chill as I saw her views on how the game was supposed to work out.

 Then I realized she just tried to take the moral high ground over Karkat, and that just won't do. Hell with Armok coming in here trying to defend her view, she's gonna go down.
Duke ♠ Vriska forever.

But yeah, she's going to die.
And we're all going to feel bad for her now that she's become more human.

God dammit, we're going to cry for the HUGE BITCH herself. HUSSIE!
Logged
EoS company name: Vikings Inc.

Osmosis Jones

  • Bay Watcher
  • Now with 100% more rotation!
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19981 on: February 09, 2011, 09:28:03 am »

God dammit, we're going to cry for the HUGE BITCH herself. HUSSIE!

At least one thing will never change. I will laugh my arse off the day Eridan's miserable excuse for a skull gets caved in. Whether crushed by dueced clubs, or speared by crabsickle, I will laugh.
Logged
The Marx generator will produce Engels-waves which should allow the inherently unstable isotope of Leninium to undergo a rapid Stalinisation in mere trockoseconds.

Urist Imiknorris

  • Bay Watcher
  • In the flesh, on the phone and in your account...
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19982 on: February 09, 2011, 09:57:48 am »

Hehe.

AG: Th8nk you John!!!!!!!! 88 your parents are in an8her castle!!!!!!!!
Logged
Quote from: LordSlowpoke
I don't know how it works. It does.
Quote from: Jim Groovester
YOU CANT NOT HAVE SUSPECTS IN A GAME OF MAFIA

ITS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GAME
Quote from: Cheeetar
If Tiruin redirected the lynch, then this means that, and... the Illuminati! Of course!

Soadreqm

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm okay with this. I'm okay with a lot of things.
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19983 on: February 09, 2011, 10:04:30 am »

Then I realized she just tried to take the moral high ground over Karkat, and that just won't do. Hell with Armok coming in here trying to defend her view, she's gonna go down.

Can I defend her view too? :P

I think she makes a pretty good point. In fact, she's sounding a lot like Andrew's narrator voice right now, explaining just why the "murderous rampage pileup" phase of the troll session was always inevitable. Troll culture is kind of crazy. Way back before we learned about the universe creation thing, I thought that the game's Ultimate Purpose was to facilitate the emotional growth of the players, and I never really gave up on that. The game is not just about breeding the genesis frog, but also about growing up, and grown up trolls are ruthless and evil and grimdark like a WH40K faction. Nowhere in the Sgrub manual does it say that the game is nice, and setting things up so that the murderous, bloodthirsty children win by being murderous and bloodthirsty makes an awful lot of sense.

Not that Karkat really did anything wrong, though. The trolls might have had an easier time if they'd just done what they felt was right where their hearts were up in, but even with cooperation and friendship running rampant, they did successfully create an universe. And if they never claimed their reward, well, that just means that the universe they created didn't have to deal with conquering trolls.

Also, whoah, holy shit, Vriska Serket is showing REMORSE? :o Gamzee is killing everyone, Vriska feels bad for killing someone and Aradia is excited. What next? Jack Noir realizes the error of his destructive ways and turns good?

Also also, Vriska dying would cause a time paradox! Karkat needs to find out that she killed Dave, and troll Dave and John about it in a memo! Unless some alt Daves died off-panel or something.
Logged

Urist Imiknorris

  • Bay Watcher
  • In the flesh, on the phone and in your account...
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19984 on: February 09, 2011, 10:09:11 am »

Also, whoah, holy shit, Vriska Serket is showing REMORSE? :o Gamzee is killing everyone, Vriska feels bad for killing someone and Aradia is excited. What next? Jack Noir realizes the error of his destructive ways and turns good?

Nepeta mortally wounds Gamzee. Calling it meow.
Logged
Quote from: LordSlowpoke
I don't know how it works. It does.
Quote from: Jim Groovester
YOU CANT NOT HAVE SUSPECTS IN A GAME OF MAFIA

ITS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GAME
Quote from: Cheeetar
If Tiruin redirected the lynch, then this means that, and... the Illuminati! Of course!

Rose

  • Bay Watcher
  • Resident Elf
    • View Profile
Logged

rarborman

  • Bay Watcher
  • Penguin Dungonmaster
    • View Profile
    • dice
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19986 on: February 09, 2011, 10:26:06 am »

Dont buy into this "make the reader feel emotions for Vriska", its just hussie trolling you.
Logged
"But to that second circle of sad hell, Where ‘mid the gust, the whirlwind, and the flaw Of rain and hail-stones, lovers need not tell Their sorrows. Pale were the sweet lips I saw, Pale were the lips I kiss’d, and fair the form I floated with, about that melancholy storm."

Duke 2.0

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CONQUISTADOR:BIRD]
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19987 on: February 09, 2011, 10:48:13 am »

 I am feeling remorse ans a feeling that is not blood-on-fire rage at her now, so take what I say with a bit of a different mindset. And perhaps some salt too.

 I think she's wrong, as much as it sounds like Hussie through that. Troll biology has nothing for friendships, the closest thing they have is Moirails which only two of the trolls have. There is a very big deal of weirdness going on between all of them, and them and the kids. Perhaps the culture was always wrong, and their biology does have room for friendships and being kind and all that stuff. It would explain why their session had so many of them like that who were not culled. Tavros, Kanaya, Karkat, Nepeta, Feferi, Sollux, presumably Aradia and Terezi are all trolls who strike me as having the same feelings as Vriska in that position. They'll kill when it's needed, but they are not psychotic murderers that will kill according to the hemospectrum. And the very Hemospectrum in their culture and how they defy it suggests that there is a problem with the culture they came from and not any inherent killer nature in their biology.

 Granted when Kanaya said Karkat was the leader because he was trying hard to portray himself as bloodthirsty yet had a soft inside is kinda damning to this, but I'll remain an idealist.

 Back when we were first introduced to Vriska she was at an odd position. She was as evil as ever, but she had problems that suggested somebody who had a hard outer shell of being full of themself and kind of a huge bitch but had a scared confused little girl inside they never wanted to address. She had flaws that made her tragic, and while I hated her evil nature I accepted that she could become a character I could eventually emphasize with.
 Then the became god-tier and because the hugest of huge bitches. God-tiers represents a sort of maturity, leaving the broken shell of the past and growing up into who you are. When Andrew said her intrusive nature was how he wrote her up it pretty much damned her forever in my mind. Her character was that she meddled and had to be involved in everything, orchestrating awful things to happen to the kids because that is who she is. She was forever a huge bitch, that was who she was, and had no redemption.
 But it seems Andrew like always hid stuff from us. This nature of feeling bad for the horrible thing(s?) she's done could possibly show support for my theory above. She's growing up, realizing the terrible things she has done and facing the emotional and social crippling that growing up under Spidermom has done. Back when we were still going over just how huge of a huge bitch she was I made a prediction: If Hussie makes her grow up and mature and developed her then I'll hate her less, and perhaps like her as a character. Will the prophecy come true?

 Holy fuck that is a lot of text.
Logged
Buck up friendo, we're all on the level here.
I would bet money Andrew has edited things retroactively, except I can't prove anything because it was edited retroactively.
MIERDO MILLAS DE VIBORAS FURIOSAS PARA ESTRANGULARTE MUERTO

Urist Imiknorris

  • Bay Watcher
  • In the flesh, on the phone and in your account...
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19988 on: February 09, 2011, 12:05:59 pm »

Hopy shit.
Logged
Quote from: LordSlowpoke
I don't know how it works. It does.
Quote from: Jim Groovester
YOU CANT NOT HAVE SUSPECTS IN A GAME OF MAFIA

ITS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE GAME
Quote from: Cheeetar
If Tiruin redirected the lynch, then this means that, and... the Illuminati! Of course!

FuzzyZergling

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zergin' erry day.
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19989 on: February 09, 2011, 12:15:53 pm »

Vriska you goddamn pansy, troll up and get with the cold-blooded murder already!

 ;)
Logged

Cthulhu

  • Bay Watcher
  • A squid
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19990 on: February 09, 2011, 01:09:33 pm »

Duke is trying really hard to fight the knowledge that the "Trolls were supposed to kill each other" thing was totally reliable-narrator-exposition.
Logged
Shoes...

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19991 on: February 09, 2011, 01:28:42 pm »

Back when we were first introduced to Vriska she was at an odd position. She was as evil as ever, but she had problems that suggested somebody who had a hard outer shell of being full of themself and kind of a huge bitch but had a scared confused little girl inside they never wanted to address. She had flaws that made her tragic, and while I hated her evil nature I accepted that she could become a character I could eventually emphasize with.

When you sit down and really think about it (and I just spent 30 minutes doing so), it all falls into place, not just for Vriska but for basically all the characters.  It's easy to forget that these character's are not complete people and just traits and dialogue on a page, created by a veteran comic writer, who prides himself on writing the story on the fly (and leave it to Vriska to wind up being Hussie's mouthpiece about herself).  So easy in fact that I willfully do so, because dissecting these characters as if this were an historical narrative is just too much fun.

Suspending disbelief and taking Vriska at her word (and there's no reason not to), it really is easy to piece together that scared little girl under all that bitchiness.  At heart, she wants to have friends, and she wants to be liked by her friends and support them in turn.  But her whole life she was raised to the vicious understanding of Trolldom and her place in it - that being conniving, hateful, duplicitous, and vengeful are virtues.  "Friends" becomes "people to make and break alliances with", "being liked" becomes "being respected, or better feared", "support" becomes "brutalize into improvement".  Oh and while you're at it, keep Shelob fed and happy.  She likes Trollmeat.

Vriska's not without her character flaws obviously.  She's impulsive and rash, she needs to at least tell herself that she feels good about herself, she's addicting, and she doesn't know how to back down.  Her everyday existence is roleplaying a persona, of a capricious bitch who epitomizes the Trolling virtues to the point of freaking out her compatriots with her drive.  But she doesn't really know how to take the mask off, she's addicted to the validation.  Meanwhile she wants to reconcile the inescapable need to do right by her friends, through only the painful definitions of "right" and "friend" she knows.  And that little girl inside keeps getting more afraid of what she knows she's doing compared to what she can't wholly understand she wants to be.

She snapped.  She gave up and gave in to the learned need to be what she thinks she's supposed to be, and the result - the permanent death of someone she cared about, and never knew how to explain herself to - finally shocked into wholly recognizing what she wants.  She had godhood handed to her, like almost every other advantage she's enjoyed, but none of that substituted for real maturity - maturing not into a Troll ideal, but what she really is.

Vriska's not alone in that dichotomy.  All twelve of them are "weird" for their world, but it's worth thinking about who's the weird ones.  Troll society encourages wanton self-interested brutality, and the Trolls that came off most as antisocial maniacs were Vriska, Eridan, Equius, and Karkat.  Equius is operating a lot like Vriska, but with his own creepy problems getting in the way of recognizing himself.  He learned different life lessons from the pressure of what lessons were imposed on him, fixated on the "state" of Troll rather than the "action".  But under all his aristocratic douchebaggery, it was easy to see a guy who just wanted to set all the complications aside and be friendly and helpful, he just hemmed in by too many codes and barriers to express it right.  Pity he was truly and ultimately a joke character, since he'll never be explored much.

Eridan is somewhere between the two.  He's buried under the weight of expectation and proper form dumped on him by Trolldom, and trying his best to live up to everything his status is supposed to entail, and the ideals of a legacy and birthright he straight up admits he imagined for himself.  He wants his enemies to fear him and his objects of affection to adore him, and to hear the lamentations at his reign of terror and destruction, and look back on a swath of burning victory and proclaim his dominion.  But it's all ultimately just a need to feel respected and needed, like anyone wants to be, and live up to the sea-rulers, the only people he thinks he's allowed to call his peers.  And he has his own simple flaws of course, rash impulse and an unrequited ego more than anything; he acts without thinking and can barely admit to himself when he's wrong.  But for all we know, after obliterating the woman he could never have and the one person who put up with him more than anyone and any chance at rebuilding his world, all just to prove he was right about all hope being lost, and ensuring it in the process, he could be bawling his nictitating eyes out in the wandpile right now after he's had time to cool down.

The clearest example of all of course is Karkat.  From his introduction through every page afterwards, it was painfully obvious that KK was not the Adonis of trolldom he made himself out to be, and he knew it and everyone else knew it.  He's a lot like Vriska really, an ultimately nice guy who wants to help his friends and prove himself.  But it's filtered through his regimented understanding of what it means to "be" a Troll.  He can't slaughter his contemporaries for their weaknesses, he has to force them to be something more.  Vriska picked up on the blunt metaphor of his blood instantly, he's basically a "human" trapped in a Troll, and doing his best to deny or reconcile it.  He's painfully obsessed with being "normal" - normal house, normal movies, normal games, normal-and-more aspirations, and most of all a brutally normal disdain for all things weak and disruptive to his image of what he's supposed to be.  Extending to his obsession with mastering, and proving such, the "normal" Troll relationships.  And since his spiel to Vriska about the nature of hatred, I always suspected that half of what Karkat knew about Troll society was invented propaganda by a warrior empire, and the other half was Karkat's own cockamamie understanding of such.  And of course, his manic quest to be Troll Beaver Cleaver wouldn't be complete if it wasn't utterly transparent to everyone around him.  Any time that veneer falls apart and Karkat's forced to be himself, he seems almost relieved, or at least settled.

While the obsession with normalcy doesn't run through all the Trolls, they're all kinda wracked with a friendly core of being, that their brutal utilitarian society never taught them how to really express or act on.  They have a blessing and a curse in the "Morailegience", but the formal nature of the relationship keeps them from fully acknowledging friendships outside of it.  And of course, we've all seen the friendship-center thing at work in the Kids from day 1.  I'd even say that the dynamic of "gung ho adoption of a stultifying upbringing while subconsciously trying to escape it" paralleled Rose and Dave's bizarre family lives; Vriska et al. more or less embraced a society where Dave's freaky upbringing is cranked to eleven and played for keeps every day, with exile (and death) awaiting anyone who can't cut it.


EDIT: Good gog almihgtey that is a big wall of text.  I think I need to go to sleep.
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Soadreqm

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm okay with this. I'm okay with a lot of things.
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19992 on: February 09, 2011, 01:41:21 pm »

Perhaps the culture was always wrong, and their biology does have room for friendships and being kind and all that stuff. It would explain why their session had so many of them like that who were not culled. Tavros, Kanaya, Karkat, Nepeta, Feferi, Sollux, presumably Aradia and Terezi are all trolls who strike me as having the same feelings as Vriska in that position. They'll kill when it's needed, but they are not psychotic murderers that will kill according to the hemospectrum. And the very Hemospectrum in their culture and how they defy it suggests that there is a problem with the culture they came from and not any inherent killer nature in their biology.

I think who they grow up to be is more a matter of culture than biology. They don't all have to appreciate the hemospectrum as long as they just sort of go along with it. If they try to become relentless murder machines because that's what's expected of them, it doesn't matter that much if they're biologically hardwired to. But yeah, they're not Always Chaotic Evil or anything. I guess you could say they have a tendency towards violence? Out of the cast of twelve, Eridan wants to eradicate the land dwellers, Gamzee goes berserk after he stops eating sopor slime, Equius demolishes robots in caged matches to calm himself down, Vriska has killed thousands to feed her giant spider, Terezi orchestrates the demise of the wicked and Nepeta kills wild animals with her bare hands. That's a lot more than you'd expect from a human group of six-sweep-olds.

Anyway, if it hadn't been for Jack, they probably could have kept their team together indefinitely without anyone going on a rampage. They're perfectly capable of working as a team if they make the effort. Just more likely to snap when things start going south.

Also; while I was very slowly typing this, stopping to make some tea, erasing everything to start over and generally wasting time, Aqizzar wrote some kind of in-depth literary analysis on the troll arc. Nice! :D
Logged

Qmarx

  • Bay Watcher
  • "?"
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19993 on: February 09, 2011, 01:42:26 pm »

Yeah, I sort of see Equius as an incredibly nervous troll-Samurai.  His culture dictates everything that he should be, like, and associate with (The troll equivalent of poetry is apparently musclebeasts?), and he's too wrapped up in the ideal of what a B100blood should be to think for himself.

He effectively commits seppuku rather than raising a hand against his troll feudal lord.
Logged

Farseer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: MSPA: come on guys just give up all your hope funds already to the SUCK-R-S
« Reply #19994 on: February 09, 2011, 01:46:25 pm »

I think she's wrong, as much as it sounds like Hussie through that. Troll biology has nothing for friendships, the closest thing they have is Moirails which only two of the trolls have.

I don't think that's true. In fact, I'm fairly certain it's been said that that's entirely not true. It's just that their culture doesn't encourage friendships.
Pages: 1 ... 1331 1332 [1333] 1334 1335 ... 3524