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[Aqizzar]

I'm mostly wondering what the Hell she's doing, and what the Hell she's been doing since...  Frankly I forget the last time she was spotlighted.  I remember her stealing some game discs from her toolshed/ancient temple, then screwing around with Dave as a game-host.  And then this.  Anything I'm missing?

[Jackrabbit]

what do you mean shits been happening with jade and dave for four fucking hours. or something.

[Outcast Orange]

I think the idea of subtypes of Mary Sues is stupid.
You could say any character is a Mary Sue of subtype X if you use that system.
Like Dave is a Mary Sue of the "Hipster" subtype.
A Mary Sue is a character with no flaws.
Cold and heartless seem like flaws to me.

[Neruz]

I think the idea of subtypes of Mary Sues is stupid.
You could say any character is a Mary Sue of subtype X if you use that system.
Like Dave is a Mary Sue of the "Hipster" subtype.
A Mary Sue is a character with no flaws.
Cold and heartless seem like flaws to me.

Educate Yourself.

The exact definition of Mary Sue varies from person to person, but generally the one common underlying trait is 'plot bias': basically meaning the plot is in cahoots with the character and bends and twists to support said character in every possible way, regardless of how implausible it may seem.

[Jackrabbit]

Of course, Andrew is nothing if not a fan of implausible plots.

It's like he takes the implausible, makes it less plausible, then makes it far more enjoying than anything that silly has a right to be.

[Soadreqm]

You mean like exploring an imaginary universe by method of little forts made of desks?

Anyway, I think Jade is awesome and don't really get this Mary Sue nonsense. Arbitrary flaws don't really make for interesting characters, either, and Jade's power level doesn't seem that high, considering the godlike powers everyone's been alchemizing for themselves lately.

And as for plot bias, she's a protagonist. And the plot is filled with time travel. Virtually everything is a stable time loop of some kind. The plot contorting itself around people's actions in strange and implausible ways is the only option.

[Neruz]

Mary Sue's are not neccessarily bad things. Many of the best works revolve around a well executed Mary Sue. Gandalf, for example, is pretty much a posterboy Marty Stu (male version of Mary Sue) but he is executed well within the story and thus it works.

The reason the words "Mary Sue" bring so much hostility is largely because they're not easy to do properly, and inevitably every poor fanfic writer screws something up with a poorly executed Mary Sue.

[Duke 2.0]

You mean like exploring an imaginary universe by method of little forts made of desks?

Anyway, I think Jade is awesome and don't really get this Mary Sue nonsense. Arbitrary flaws don't really make for interesting characters, either, and Jade's power level doesn't seem that high, considering the godlike powers everyone's been alchemizing for themselves lately.
 That's the thing, they had to work for them. She just had them. One could argue that she is more powerful due to the nature of her grandfather raising her, being the first to enter the dream state and eventually when Gunkind comes into play, but the lack of seeing any work does get a little annoying.

And as for plot bias, she's a protagonist. And the plot is filled with time travel. Virtually everything is a stable time loop of some kind. The plot contorting itself around people's actions in strange and implausible ways is the only option.
The problem is moreso her doing whatever and stuff happens and WAT WAT WAT. John got a game and started to play it, eventually getting caught up in an adventure. Rose and Dave are in similar situations, with somewhat clear goals and reasons for what they do what they do. Jade has no reason or purpose. She ferries around objects for time travel for who the hell knows and generally just chats around and feeds her dog. Why does she do this? Who the hell knows. I just can't sympathize with a character when you know nothing about them.

[Soadreqm]

That's the thing, they had to work for them. She just had them. One could argue that she is more powerful due to the nature of her grandfather raising her, being the first to enter the dream state and eventually when Gunkind comes into play, but the lack of seeing any work does get a little annoying.

Well, okay, maybe. I don't mind it, but I see your point.

The problem is moreso her doing whatever and stuff happens and WAT WAT WAT. John got a game and started to play it, eventually getting caught up in an adventure. Rose and Dave are in similar situations, with somewhat clear goals and reasons for what they do what they do. Jade has no reason or purpose. She ferries around objects for time travel for who the hell knows and generally just chats around and feeds her dog. Why does she do this? Who the hell knows. I just can't sympathize with a character when you know nothing about them.

John got a game, started playing it, and then discovered that his father has been monitoring meteor activity for who knows how long, and apparently knew all about the adventure. Rose wanted the thing to resurrect her dead cat, to inquire about something he apparently told her years ago, only to discover that her mom has been trying to do just that in the laboratory next door with Sburb spirographs on the walls. Dave... Well, okay, he seems to be in it mostly because he's friends with the other kids, but his brother still seems to know something about it. EVERYONE'S involvement in this temporal clusterfuck is caused by some stable time loop or another. "Stuff happens and WAT WAT WAT" is pretty much Andrew's modus operandi.

As for Jade's motivations, the obvious one is that she wants her friends to win the game and save Skaia or whatever. She just knew about it beforehand, thanks to her Skaia Cloud Visions. Chatting around and fighting their guardians, as well as struggling with their inventory systems was what EVERY kid did before moving to the Medium, by the way, and if the gray bars in the Trollian timeline window mean that, it will happen fairly soon. I expect she'll then start fighting imps and get her bed tossed into the ocean by John, just like everyone else.

Mary Sue's are not neccessarily bad things. Many of the best works revolve around a well executed Mary Sue. Gandalf, for example, is pretty much a posterboy Marty Stu (male version of Mary Sue) but he is executed well within the story and thus it works.

The reason the words "Mary Sue" bring so much hostility is largely because they're not easy to do properly, and inevitably every poor fanfic writer screws something up with a poorly executed Mary Sue.

The TVTropes people can't agree on anything about the term "Mary Sue", except the negative connotations. It could be argued that Gandalf can't be a Mary Sue because he is well written.

And it's not like other people in the Lord of the Rings were very flawed, either. Bilbo, Tolkien's ACTUAL author avatar was the only person in the history of the universe to willingly give away the One Ring. Aragorn is the True King of Gondor, and successfully mind-wrestles Sauron over the Palantír. Gandalf is powerful, but he doesn't stand out as much as poorly characterized fanfic people.

[Neruz]

The TVTropes people can't agree on anything about the term "Mary Sue", except the negative connotations. It could be argued that Gandalf can't be a Mary Sue because he is well written.

And it's not like other people in the Lord of the Rings were very flawed, either. Bilbo, Tolkien's ACTUAL author avatar was the only person in the history of the universe to willingly give away the One Ring. Aragorn is the True King of Gondor, and successfully mind-wrestles Sauron over the Palantír. Gandalf is powerful, but he doesn't stand out as much as poorly characterized fanfic people.

No-one can agree on the term "Mary Sue". The term has become so twisted and contorted that pretty much any character can be argued for or against.

And yes; Gandalf is powerful, but he doesn't twist and bend the story around him like a black hole, which is what makes him a well-written Sue. Gandalf is a blatant Mary Sue: he's mysterious, powerful, never really meets any actual opposition, and what opposition he does meet serves to advance his story rather than actually oppose him, he has flying eagle mounts, defeated a Balrog in one-on-one combat, saved Helms Deep and came back from the dead all by himself. Gandalf is a walking Deus Ex Machina, but he's applied carefully, is not overused and the plot doesn't bend around him, so it works out.


Basically; Gandalf has all the properties of a Mary Sue, without actually being one due to being written well.

[Jackrabbit]

I thought he was brought back from the dead by an otherworldly power so that Sauron wouldn't win.

[dragnar]

I'm not quite clear on this, due to only having read part of the silmarion(or however that's spelled), but the wizards were created by the gods themselves as some sort of counterbalance to sauron, who was made by the most powerful god(who went rouge) Gandalf could not truly die until his task was done. I'm not sure why sarumon didn't come back to life due to this though.

[ToonyMan]

Gandalf ain't no Mary Sue.

[Jackrabbit]

I'm not quite clear on this, due to only having read part of the silmarion(or however that's spelled), but the wizards were created by the gods themselves as some sort of counterbalance to sauron, who was made by the most powerful god(who went rouge) Gandalf could not truly die until his task was done. I'm not sure why sarumon didn't come back to life due to this though.

Presumably either turning to Sauron made the Gods abandon him, or perhaps he had completed his role, in giving a new life to the Uruk-Hai and attacking Helms Deep.

Either way, he died after the ring was destroyed, so there wasn't a reason for him to come back.

[zchris13]

I'm not quite clear on this, due to only having read part of the silmarion(or however that's spelled), but the wizards were created by the gods themselves as some sort of counterbalance to sauron, who was made by the most powerful god(who went rogue) Gandalf could not truly die until his task was done. I'm not sure why sarumon didn't come back to life due to this though.

Sauron is a spirit, same as Gandalf, who are sort of like the gods (they live in the same place?) but less powerful.

Also, Morgoth was just a jerk.  Sauron worked for him, and so did the Balrogs (Sauron was a balrog).

I'm not quite clear on this, due to only having read part of the silmarion(or however that's spelled), but the wizards were created by the gods themselves as some sort of counterbalance to sauron, who was made by the most powerful god(who went rouge) Gandalf could not truly die until his task was done. I'm not sure why sarumon didn't come back to life due to this though.

Presumably either turning to Sauron made the Gods abandon him, or perhaps he had completed his role, in giving a new life to the Uruk-Hai and attacking Helms Deep.

Either way, he died after the ring was destroyed, so there wasn't a reason for him to come back.

The Gods didn't really intervene in Gandalf's case, I don't think.  I think it was the eagles that saved him.