Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

pudding

pops

[Boea]

LE is a First Guardian.
There is one First Guardian per Session that has one.
A First Guardian is based on the characteristics of their ingredients, and target.
For Example Becquerel is not Halley.
God Cat is not the cat it was made of. [probably Mutini]

We aren't sure who at all is the target of the Alternian First Guardian is, and to make things worse is that said Guardian has two forms, so we don't conclusively know who it is based on the two forms. [Maybe Cal (likely) , maybe Caliborn (less likely)]

From what is seen, the Target is something in the Session of Genesis' Universe. [Caliborn is not]

Maybe the AFG doesn't have a target, and is simply made of his components.

The AFG's components, set aside the target are; Felt Cal [either From Kanaya, or the Felt Manor, that's an unclear spot] by Gamzee [I wonder why this sticks to my head, but the guy's the only one who was seen throughout the session with the puppet. Terezi was seen with Felt Cal long after the fact, after the Reckoning] ; an Oracle Cue Ball; Tavros', Aradia's, Vriska's, Terezi's Manuals, and Doomed Gamzee's Tome which encompasses the rise, lifetime, and fall of a demon, and the birth of another, and some code that ties the product to the Green Sun [as seen with Becquerel] .

No matter what you say, the two characteristics the two forms at least share is Guardianhood, and the Felt Motif.
And, the codes are if anything highly relevant to the form of the First Guardian [since at the very least it links them to the Green Sun] [Doc also told us what the codes were for: the Death of One Demon, for Another]

If it was a case of demonic possession by Caliborn, then it is still not Caliborn, the possession is a part of Cal.
Ectobiology modulates all characteristics of all present components, you can argue for how much it is Caliborn, but that is as far as you can go.
The AFG isn't just Cal, but the other parts listed too.
The demonic possession isn't all there is to the AFG.
LE is at that point something based on something inside Cal, if anything, the other components, and the codes that dictates his lifetime, and after his transformations, and said conditions for said transformations.

No, Boea, you don't understand. This is homestuck. Logic doesn't apply. The only things we can take for absolute fact are things that we have seen for a fact. Cause and effect isn't a thing. 99% of homestuck is a red herring, and the other 17% is hussnasty.

So the Green Sun is a bottle cap? [Hussfacts]
So causality is moot? [Say that to the Beforan, Alternian, Alpha, and Beta Sessions, the Doomed Timelines, and the Beta Daves]
Karkat's Ancestor is His Honorable Tyranny? [Blast from the Past]
The Heralds are Irrelevant? [The Roles? The Legends? The Denizens?]

[Putnam]

LE is a First Guardian.

No he isn't. Why do you think he is? He may have first guardian powers, but that does not make him a first guardian. He probably got them from Scratch.

There is one First Guardian per Session that has one.

Yes, this one being Scratch.

We aren't sure who at all is the target of the Alternian First Guardian is, and to make things worse is that said Guardian has two forms, so we don't conclusively know who it is based on the two forms. [Maybe Cal (likely) , maybe Caliborn (less likely)]

Yes we do. It was shown very, very, very, VERY explicitly that Doc Scratch is the first Guardian of Alternia, made from Lil' Cal and a Magic Cue Ball, plus the t1ck t0ck 8r8k H34DS hOnK HoNk code.

[Boea]

YOu are ignoring the importance of the codes used in the AFG's creation in the form of the AFG.
Doc even tells us that the codes signify the rise and fall of a demon [himself] for the birth of another [LE] from a transaction that is a metamorphosis. [Screaming Cherub Swapping to the extreme]

It's painful how literally the transformation is a bastardized Cherub Swap, with the trigger being past the end of the Universe

[Putnam]

Why are you using AFG instead of Doc Scratch? Doc Scratch is the first guardian of Alternia. This is confirmed.

And the codes do, as seen in Intermission 2, where the clock t1ck t0cks, Doc Scratch's H34D 8r8ks, and Lord English hOnKs.

[FuzzyZergling]

There is no hint, at all, that LE is a First Guardian.

[Boea]

Why are you using AFG instead of Doc Scratch? Doc Scratch is the first guardian of Alternia. This is confirmed.

And the codes do, as seen in Intermission 2, where the clock t1ck t0cks, Doc Scratch's H34D 8r8ks, and Lord English hOnKs.

Go to the part were Doc regales about the Code Manuals, and Doomed Gamzee's Tome.

[Putnam]

Why are you using AFG instead of Doc Scratch? Doc Scratch is the first guardian of Alternia. This is confirmed.

And the codes do, as seen in Intermission 2, where the clock t1ck t0cks, Doc Scratch's H34D 8r8ks, and Lord English hOnKs.

Go to the part were Doc regales about the Code Manuals, and Doomed Gamzee's Tome.

And where would that be? If you'll notice, I linked you to the part about the Code Manuals and Doomed Gamzee's Tome. What it's saying is that "Doc Scratch was made from the codes plus a Magic Cue Ball plus Lil' Cal and that made Doc Scratch, the First Guardian of Alternia".

[Boea]

Why are you using AFG instead of Doc Scratch? Doc Scratch is the first guardian of Alternia. This is confirmed.

And the codes do, as seen in Intermission 2, where the clock t1ck t0cks, Doc Scratch's H34D 8r8ks, and Lord English hOnKs.

Go to the part were Doc regales about the Code Manuals, and Doomed Gamzee's Tome.

And where would that be? If you'll notice, I linked you to the part about the Code Manuals and Doomed Gamzee's Tome. What it's saying is that "Doc Scratch was made from the codes plus a Magic Cue Ball plus Lil' Cal and that made Doc Scratch, the First Guardian of Alternia".

They’re separate entities. Though because they share the same body more or less, and essentially the same origin, they share properties [Upper-Middle of "Is Scratch literally Lord English? Or has LE completely replaced him? How much of Scratch’s cognizance/personality/being is still in LE?"]

When LE transformed, he kept all the Cal properties (magnified them actually), but dropped the cueball aspect. In fact, his cueball head exploded outright. This was “the break” Scratch referred to once or twice. A literal description of LE’s emergence, as well as reference to the pool term, where the cueball scatters all the other balls, and the game begins. [Bottom of "Is Scratch literally Lord English? Or has LE completely replaced him? How much of Scratch’s cognizance/personality/being is still in LE?"]

Personally, I feel like the shock value is not so much stored in the fact that Scratch = LE, but in the sudden, disturbing nature and presentation of the transformation itself. And hey, if the Scratch = LE tidbit happened to catch you way off guard, I’ll consider it a bonus. [Bottom of "T1CK T0CK BR8K H34DS honk HONK."]

So LE is the Hulk in suspenders with a Cal skull for a head……… really????
Yes, really. [Top of "So LE is the Hulk in suspenders with a Cal skull for a head……… really????"]

So, yes LE is Scratch is AFG therefore not Caliborn, vaguely based on him, yes, but you question should be more of, how much of Caliborn is he.

LE is either a non-Zilly Cal AFG thingy that takes after Caliborn's  past-homocidal-hate for Calliope, or a blatant characture of Cal and what Cal represents in some manner.

[Putnam]

Those questions you asked were specifically saying that Scratch is NOT Lord English. Plus, this was all before Caliborn was revealed at all.

[Boea]

Those questions you asked were specifically saying that Scratch is NOT Lord English. Plus, this was all before Caliborn was revealed at all.

Saying there is one First Guardian and that LE is the First Guardian when Doc is one too doesn't mean much when LE is Doc.
When I was trying to explain that Doc became LE because LE is the second form to Doc's first form still means there is one AFG, just 2 forms.
It does NOT invalidate the FACT if it is an established item, if anything, Caliborn being revealed, and involved with Cal explains where LE's facade came from.

What it doesn't explain is why Jack English has LE's rainbow powers, and eyes. [Hell, those eyes in Cal could be from LE for all we care.]
Felt Cal being around the First Guardian who can imprint on the doll can explain a lot to that end.

[GlyphGryph]

Reasons LE is not Caliborn:

1) LE doesn't look anything like Caliborn. Even his face symbol is different - one wouldn't expect that to change.
2) He has "possessed" eyes, and Caliborn is the only one shown to possess people and give them those eyes (Like he did with Jack). Caliborn would clearly not possess himself.
3) He uses weaponry Caliborn doesn't.
4) He exhibits many powers Caliborn doesn't.
5) He erupted out of a doll in a major transformation sequence referred to as his "birth". I've yet to hear a single possible explanation of how that would work if he was literally Caliborn, forget a way that makes sense logically or as part of the narrarrative.

What reason do you have to believe LE is Caliborn, rather than simply being one of his tools?

None of those 5 are insurmountable. But taken altogether... LE literally being Caliborn just doesn't make any sense, imo.

[Boea]

Thank you gryph <3

[Putnam]

Since when does he use weaponry Caliborn doesn't? He uses a cane and a rifle. That's what Caliborn uses.

4 can be explained by Caliborn still being early in his game session.

5 is because Caliborn is a weird bastard. It's basically fiduspawn on a reality scale, and will probably be explained later.

I have reason to believe because of the ridiculous amount of foreshadowing to it:

1) Caliborn has all of the same features. Literally all of them. The only thing missing is the eyes. The rest is identical--the same gold tooth, the same red-dotted cheeks, everything. I have no idea what you mean by "face symbol", because they both have the same one.

2) He uses the same weaponry: a cane and rifle.

3) They are both green, angry assholes.
3a) Who both wear suspenders.
3b) Who are both cherubs.
3c) Who are both the Lord of Time.
3d) Who are both referred to as "Calliope's brother" repeatedly.
3e) Who both have candy red blood.

4) They both command the Felt.

5) They both hate women.

6) Lord English's name has been given as "Califin" by a character who can't remember names and "Calicorn" by a character who had to make the "Calico" pun.

[Boea]

Since when does he use weaponry Caliborn doesn't? He uses a cane and a rifle. That's what Caliborn uses.

4 can be explained by Caliborn still being early in his game session.
I'll wait for the insurmountable evidence first
5 is because Caliborn is a weird bastard. It's basically fiduspawn on a reality scale.
So is Jade
I have reason to believe because of the ridiculous amount of foreshadowing to it:

1) Caliborn has all of the same features. Literally all of them. The only thing missing is the eyes. The rest is identical--the same gold tooth, the same red-dotted cheeks, everything. I have no idea what you mean by "face symbol", because they both have the same one.
I don't see puppet-like unhinged jaw, incredible muscles, and strange honking capabilities
2) He uses the same weaponry: a cane and rifle.
Not the same rifle, cane, and sarcophagus. I don't see Caliborn shooting lasers.
3) They are both green, angry assholes who wear suspenders who are cherubs who are titled the Lord of Time.
But those are characteristics they share, that's about it
4) They both command the Felt.
So does Doc
5) They both hate women.
Also seen with Doc

[Putnam]

1) Just because you don't see that doesn't mean the rest doesn't matter. Besides, why can't he gain all that later? Caliborn is still early in his quest, and we haven't seen all of it.

2) Because every character in the whole of Homestuck has stuck with the same weapon throughout their entire Sburb quest. Besides, he does have a sarswapagus.

3) I have more now.

4) Yes, because Lord English let him and was said explicitly in your link to be a seperate entity from Lord English.

5) No he doesn't. He finds them cute.