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Author Topic: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism  (Read 6154 times)

SniHjen

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2009, 02:25:38 am »

Survival of the fittest is not the only get a head in life (or evolution).

Survival of the sneakiest as well!

No such + thing.

If he was sneaky enough to get his genes passed on to offspring, then he was fit.

It doesn't matter how this "fit" works, but that it allows you to mutiply.
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That [Magma] is a bit deep down there, don't you think?
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2009, 03:16:50 am »

I think of it more as "survival of who ever the fuck happens to be around."

Anyway way yeah what ShiHjen said, being able to reproduce is all that matters. Skills are only needed to help the creature survive up to that point.
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G-Flex

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2009, 03:21:53 am »

Of course, it gets a bit more complicated in social situations, since you have group dynamics and people affecting each other's survival.
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2009, 03:38:31 am »

Of course, it gets a bit more complicated in social situations, since you have group dynamics and people affecting each other's survival.
The beaurocracy will take care of all that.
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Muz

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2009, 04:17:19 am »

One notable biologist said that "the purpose of reproduction is for genes to live". That's pretty much how natural selection works. If one gene can survive more by helping millions others, it works well.. helps you in vision, shedding old skin, growing your fingernail, etc. If a gene can only exist by being malicious, you get cancer. That said, it doesn't always know what all the other genes are doing, that's what the brain is for, that's what reflexes are for, etc. It's somewhat more complicated than that, but it's pretty much a tl;dr of a few chapters of a book in evolutionary biology.

Humans sort of mess up Darwinism. We have all sorts of methods to determine the best mate. It doesn't work like animals... poor people would want to reproduce more, as more reproduction brings in more money. They also pass down more of their genes that way. Humans tend to go for loyal mates.

Rich, educated people prefer an intellectual, rich mate. You don't find some billionaire marrying some dumb blonde; he'll sleep with them, but won't take care of the kids.

Also, the cliches of women liking men with money, men liking a slim/curvaceous woman. Because those women expect the men to provide their children with plenty of resources, while the men expect the women to reproduce enough.

And interestingly, everyone has their own perception of what's attractive. People tend to go for foreigners because of genetic diversity. White men like tanned women, Asians prefer fair skinned women. Those who are already genetically diverse (mixed blood) tend to be extremely attractive to everyone. Just look at the genetic line of a lot of supermodels and actors, actresses. Good boys going for bad girls (and vice versa) works because they tend to cover each other's weaknesses and strengths.

Natural selection still shows up in humanity though, the most obvious being how some people treat their stepchildren. Stepchildren seem to have a bit of extra hostility because they take up the resources that should be given to genetic children, but not actually spread any genes. If you look at most of the horror news where parents kill their children, it's often that one of them is a step-parent.

It's still a matter of perception though. Humans tend to overthink. While our instincts are wired to appreciate the nutrients in an apple, our tongues enjoy apple-flavored juice. In the same way, we are also prone to giving adopted children, or dumb models a huge chunk of our resources even though it doesn't put us at a genetic advantage.

tl;dr: It works.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2009, 05:33:02 am »

I'm a white man, and I think tan people are gross. 

Your theory is falling apart.
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2009, 05:35:21 am »

Quote
tl;dr: It works.
Until immortality is discovered.
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SniHjen

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2009, 05:38:57 am »

I'm a white man, and I think tan people are gross. 

Your theory is falling apart.

You are an individuel, not the entire human race, what may not be true for the part(you), is true for the whole.(humans)

also: creationist says "evilution" is false because dogs doesn't give birth to cats.
How the fuck can people be so stupid still?


also: there is no such thing as "Darwinism"!

Darwin laid down the fundementel ideas about natural selection, but he had no idea how this "information" was transfered to the offspring.

How could he? The exsistence of DNA wasn't discovered until 100 years later.

Evolution theory AND fact is something that he would reconize,[spelling:] but much of what we know now would astonize [spl:] him!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 05:42:22 am by SniHjen »
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That [Magma] is a bit deep down there, don't you think?
You really aren't thinking like a dwarf.

If you think it is down too far, you move it up until it reaches an acceptable elevation.

Leafsnail

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2009, 07:12:59 am »

Yeah, "Darwinist" is not a correct term to describe evolution.  That's like calling anyone who thinks the laws of motion are correct "Newtonist".  Darwin didn't know about genes, and thought that all characteristics blended.  His theory (had enough supporting evidence to be one, probably) isn't like the one we have today.

And we always have to remember that the brain is an evolved organ, just like everything else.  It isn't somehow exempt.  Neither is society - societies that allowed some people who were in poor positions to continue living benefitted from cheap labour and spread better.  Evolution doesn't just happen at the organism level, it also effects the family level, the group level and to some extent to whole of societies.  If there were, say, a mutation that caused human beings to have no empathy and kill the inferior by default, the individual would do well, but the society they lived in would soon crumble, and we wouldn't see whole societies full of them today.
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Jude

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2009, 09:15:00 am »

"Survival of the fittest" does not sum up, nor fully describe, evolution.
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Willfor

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2009, 02:01:52 am »

also: creationist says "evilution" is false because dogs doesn't give birth to cats.
How the fuck can people be so stupid still?
I think you sort of missed the part where the OP quite explicitly said not to drag religion into this topic. So far it's been a rather civil topic, and I'd rather not see if go down in flames after coming this far. :)
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Nilocy

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2009, 05:55:41 am »

Well, theres that great pseudo-quote (not by Darwin but that other friend guy he had) "Surivival of the fittest". Problem I see now-a-days is that there are unfit people surviving, I think all people are equal but this view is entirely scientific, such as heart disease patient, people with a long running history of cancer, and they all reproduce and pass those faulty genes to their children.

I think its maybe because humans are at that evolutionary stage where it no longer completely depends on what or genes are. We don't need to be the strongest, smartest, fastest to survive any more. Cause we have other people to do that for us right?

Or maybe its that we've finally become to experiment with the Human Genome, eventually we'll all be perfect if the crazy gene scientists get their way. Heck, I'd like my children to have the best future for them, so why not just choose the best bits for them?

I dunno, its a bit of a nasty gray area I'm going into here. But I do agree with you umi, the gene pool is depressingly average.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2009, 06:04:28 am »

Yes, that's another thing, specialization.  Humans no longer need to be good at everything - capitalism means that you can be very good at one thing, and have other people do the other things for you.  This may be why some genes cannot propagate.

And we have to remember that poor =/= bad genes.  They could have equally good or better genes than other people, but be born into poor conditions.
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SniHjen

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 06:11:27 am »

Well, theres that great pseudo-quote (not by Darwin but that other friend guy he had) "Surivival of the fittest". Problem I see now-a-days is that there are unfit people surviving, such as heart disease patient, people with a long running history of cancer, and they all reproduce and pass those faulty genes to their children.
From a evolution point of view, thats not a fault, you have already done your task of carrying on the genes, therefor, what happens after that doesn't really matter.
From a humanist point of view, you are right.

I think its maybe because humans are at that evolutionary stage where it no longer completely depends on what or[sic] genes are. We don't need to be the strongest, smartest, [or/and] fastest to survive any more. Cause we have other people to do that for us right?
You are viewing if from a humanist point of view, not a gene/survivel/reproduction point of view.
Or maybe its that we've finally become to experiment with the Human Genome, eventually we'll all be perfect if the crazy gene scientists get their way. Heck, I'd like my children to have the best future for them, so why not just choose the best bits for them?
Sighs... what is "Perfect"?
I think that... Nevermind...

I dunno, its a bit of a nasty gray area I'm going into here. But I do agree with you umi, the gene pool is depressingly average.
Gray? how?

also, this "depressingly average" is AGAIN a humanist point of view.

Stop focusing on the individuel![oh god, my spelling...]

I'm not even going to comment of leafsnails post.
THE IDEA THAT THERE IS "BAD GENES" IS A HUMANCENTRIST POINT OF VIEW!
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That [Magma] is a bit deep down there, don't you think?
You really aren't thinking like a dwarf.

If you think it is down too far, you move it up until it reaches an acceptable elevation.

Leafsnail

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Re: Humans are not within the scope of Darwinism
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2009, 06:16:16 am »

Quote
And we have to remember that poor =/= bad genes.
What's wrong with that, SNJ?  Do you think that all poor people are genetic retards?
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