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[Toady One]

QuakeIV, if you've got a problem, report it with the moderator button.

Pilsu, I've warned you a few times about your abrasiveness.  Looking through your recent posts, little has changed.  If you can't be polite, do not post.

[QuakeIV]

How much coin ca a dwarf reasonably carry, without impairing his ability to function, though?

Are we going to crush a no-skill, no-stat hauler, under the combined weight of the table he's carrying and his wallet, forcing his to drag it across the map with agonizing slowness?

Somehow i dont think that would affect said dwarf.

[LordDemon]

How much coin ca a dwarf reasonably carry, without impairing his ability to function, though?

Are we going to crush a no-skill, no-stat hauler, under the combined weight of the table he's carrying and his wallet, forcing his to drag it across the map with agonizing slowness?

That won't propably be a problem. Gold and silver coins are not that heavy, some quick checking places the weight around 5-20g, depending on the coin and era.

At that, 1 kg would be 200-50 coins, depending on weight. So a dwarf will likely reach the coin purse volume limit before the weight limit from coins. 

Anyway, while we are on subject of coins, I'd like foreign traders that come to your fortress to shop around with their own coinage too. In the middle ages, money was money because the material was worth something. Even if you are at war with elves, golden elf coin is worth it's value in gold. So why whouldn't you accept foreign coins? Traders (and their guards likely) should arrive to the depot, and while some trade, others go to have a good meal, warm bed or good drink, and maybe go and buy some crafts, weapons etc. from the stores. Some sort of tavern building near trade depot could earn you nice money.

[Pilsu]

I fail to see why the post is considered abrasive. I was merely suggesting that we not derail the thread, any attitude you attribute to the post is your own. I only remember one warning and that was for obvious childish bickering.


Gold bars aren't worth much as is. How do you make gold coins "worth their weight in gold" actually valuable while at the same time reconciling the loss of metal while smelting and the resultant value of golden crafts? I guess the value of materials could be multiplied when bought or sold at the trade depot but even if multiplied by 10, IE gold bars costing 300, you'd still end up with 500 coins with next to no value. Coins per bar need to be severely reduced

[Toady One]

Pilsu:  it wasn't that post I was referring to specifically, I referred to other recent posts, though I can see why what I said would be confusing.  I will PM you examples.  As for the number of warnings, you've received two via the warning system, and the one above in the thread here.

[tsen]

Anyway, while we are on subject of coins, I'd like foreign traders that come to your fortress to shop around with their own coinage too. In the middle ages, money was money because the material was worth something. Even if you are at war with elves, golden elf coin is worth it's value in gold. So why whouldn't you accept foreign coins? Traders (and their guards likely) should arrive to the depot, and while some trade, others go to have a good meal, warm bed or good drink, and maybe go and buy some crafts, weapons etc. from the stores. Some sort of tavern building near trade depot could earn you nice money.

Brilliant. And we can melt their coins down and re-mint them so we have a source of specie for our fortresses that doesn't require imported metals.

[LordDemon]

Anyway, while we are on subject of coins, I'd like foreign traders that come to your fortress to shop around with their own coinage too. In the middle ages, money was money because the material was worth something. Even if you are at war with elves, golden elf coin is worth it's value in gold. So why whouldn't you accept foreign coins? Traders (and their guards likely) should arrive to the depot, and while some trade, others go to have a good meal, warm bed or good drink, and maybe go and buy some crafts, weapons etc. from the stores. Some sort of tavern building near trade depot could earn you nice money.

Brilliant. And we can melt their coins down and re-mint them so we have a source of specie for our fortresses that doesn't require imported metals.

Or alternatively you can store a lot more gold in your vault, or pay traders with their own currency.

But in short, that is the idea. I'm tired of seeing only coins I've minted in game. Gold is gold, no matter whose picture is on the coin. And getting a steady increase in the treasury without minting your own coins would be nice.

And lets not forget, once the military arch is ready, you likely will loot  other civs treasuries, and their coins should be worth something...

I would also like a extended coinage. You can mint platinum and adamantium coins if you wish, but no-one uses them. Why not?
Wouldn't in society where coins worth is based on the metal it is made of any special coin be a acceptable money? Sure, platinum coin might not be official, but you get a piece of platinum in exchange, so it is not like you lose something, unless the coin is worth more then the metal used to make it.

[Lord Shonus]

At times, Electrum and Billon were the most common coin materials, because it diluted the more scarce, more valiable metal, but was worth more than the next less valuable metal.

Material values greatly need rework anyway. Iron being more valuable than tin, especially, just doesn't make sense. Iron is an extremely common metal, and, after the invention of coke, was useful but not particularly valuable, while tin was the cause of wars even after iron became plentiful. Steel's in the right place, though, particularly since the secret of steel does not seem to be very well known.

[Eidalac]

Personally, I'd like it to be a bit abstracted:

Once the economy is active, dwarves earn and spend wages as they do now, without needing manufactured coins.  However, using these numbers the game can track the owned wealth of the fortress, and you need to keep a stock of coins to match this value, else your dorfs will get unhappy thoughts (the tax collector, count/duke/baron and king should get the biggest hits from this, and other dwarves will get stronger thoughts the more wealthy they have).  Having extra coins would, likewise, result in happy thoughts.

This still gives you that neat vault filled with binging coins, but without the morons moving the piles around and the like.

I do like the wallet idea someone posted previously, however, I still think that would leave dwarves pushing piles of coins around all year long.

[Rowanas]

hmm. skip the paper, go straight to credit cards. The money may or may not exist, but the point is, you can spend it. I don't want my dwarves getting into a DF Credit crunch because they're as stupid as real people. Drinking alcohol while on fire, fair enough. Wresting carp because you ran out of bolts, fair enough. Buying more than you can afford despite needing none of that sh*t, not good.

[Richards]

Anyway, while we are on subject of coins, I'd like foreign traders that come to your fortress to shop around with their own coinage too. In the middle ages, money was money because the material was worth something. Even if you are at war with elves, golden elf coin is worth it's value in gold. So why whouldn't you accept foreign coins? Traders (and their guards likely) should arrive to the depot, and while some trade, others go to have a good meal, warm bed or good drink, and maybe go and buy some crafts, weapons etc. from the stores. Some sort of tavern building near trade depot could earn you nice money.

That's a good idea.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Indeed their should be a steady steam of traders that are just MOVING THOUGH and not their to trade with out (outside of food and shelter they need while traveling).  Adventures (as a new profession) might also come and go, they would often trade in valuable items (buying equipment and selling loot) and would be less predictable then caravans, some of your disgruntled citizens might join them and leave for years or even forever.

[Pilsu]

What would these adventurers use for trading? Just coins or copper amulets and other NPC fodder loot? How do you keep the player from being swamped in worthless goods and materials like lead and wood trinkets?

[LordDemon]

What would these adventurers use for trading? Just coins or copper amulets and other NPC fodder loot? How do you keep the player from being swamped in worthless goods and materials like lead and wood trinkets?

Easiest option is likely to allow them to trade with coins from other/ancient kingdoms, which they have encountered on their voyages. Beyong that, if the trades are done with shops, there is little need for player to do, as the shop owner will buy the goods, in hope to sell it forward to someone, and will pay with his coins.
Shop might get full of some item, but then resell them to others soon. If the items have some form of desirability rating, (how likely customers are likely to buy them) then shops shouldn't buy a lot of stuff from adventurers just because they sell it, shop owner should expect to be able to re-sell it too, with profit if possible. Trade should also increase your fortress value: The better the merchant, the less he pays when he buys, and more he gets when he sells. Now, when you only buy and sell for your own folk, it won't be a problem. If you would buy and sell with foreigners, you could slowly accumulate wealth, since there is an outside element.

If it is needed, a stockpile type system could be enabled in "fortress store", where adventurers would sell their items to fortress directly. These items would end in your stockpiles, and be paid by money from the vault, but you would have some degree of control what you want to buy. Agreeing to buy only certain material items, certain quality level items or certain type of items, or some combination would allow pretty good control.

Most common adventurer stuff to sell should propably be gems, coins and valuable crafts. If the current problem of everyone having giant cave spider socks (why not simply ropereed/pigtail socks?) they would be the most valuable, easy to carry things.
Also, they would be pretty usable for resale to caravans or other dwarfs.

If it is needed, perhaps adventurers could have an option to melt items with higher efficiency (near 100%) and recollect some gems/material from decorations to make their loot more tradable.

[Pilsu]

Losing metal while smelting makes no sense to begin with. You should be able to recover the gems though

Seeing as all goods are still communally handled, economy or not, I'd like some control over what gets sold. I already resent random dwarves handling shops, even worse if the owners start stealing whatever they damn well please and sell it off in exchange for gold with no input from me