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[Richards]

At the moment making coins for the currency in the current dwarf fortress economy creates problems.

I wrote this up on the dwarf wiki suggesting a possible way to fix the issue of coins and after a search on the forums I didn't see any similar suggestion so I decided to post it here:

Coins in use shouldn't be a hauled item persay, but coins that are initially minted should be brought to a bank, (I like the idea of a bin vault with a teller desk on the outside with a banker who distrubutes coinage to arriving dwarves). Leather, or cloth wallets could be made and the coins stored as other containers do (quivers, backpacks). They would all have a limit on the amount of coins stored in them, and every three months dwarves get their "paycheck" for the difference in the money that they haved earned and that amount is accredited to the dwarf by the bank. So if the dwarf wanted to go shopping he would simply go to the bank and transfer the coins into him wallet, (maybe the banker does this for him or they go in to the coin stockpile themselves).

Coins also allow the idea of "thieves" and if there were some dwarves with this personality they could go into other dwarves rooms, especially those with whom they have a grudge against, and steal their money out of their coffers. Causing new reasons and justification for justice to exist, (severe beatings causing thieves to loose that pesonality attribute).

This solves the problem of dwarves hauling their money over the map, the problem with stacking, (if you allow coins to be deposited side-by-side in bins and in the wallet), and adds some depth. As a side note, the Tax Collector should have a role in collecting taxes for the bank's services. At the moment, taxes for rooms just vanish into a black hole.

Thoughts?

I'll put this up on the eternal voting page. Toady I'm sure can run with this according to his design vision to make it better.

[LordNagash]

As a side note, the Tax Collector should have a role in collecting taxes for the bank's services. At the moment, taxes for rooms just vanish into a black hole.

Actually, I thought the tax collector /did/ go around and collect taxes, with a couple of royal guards to back him up. Maybe I imagined it.

[Grendus]

The problem with a DF coin based economy is time issues. It takes a dwarf a few days to get to the bank and get their money. Money hauling would become a full time job, that's why most players don't bother with it. It's something that's better taken care of behind the scenes.

[Maw]

Hmm, try this.

I gather the perceived problem is - after making/minting coins, they become a haulable item that each dwarf 'owns', takes and scatters around your dungeon, necessitating more hauling based on economy ups and downs.

Why not instead,

Retain the non-economy system where everything is recorded in credit (converted to coin in economy) but minted coin itself does not then become an 'owned' commodity.  For play purposes, we retain the simplicity of the 'credit' system for tracking dwarf finances.  Now, why would we mint coin?  Coin becomes required to activate higher game functions (shops, etc).  Unlike now, the Tax Collector himself does not activate shops (as example), but activates economy.  TC then determines total wealth of the fortress (total credit from credit system of dwarfs, builds in an inflation amount) and sets the requirement for minted coin to match.  We as players mint the coin which is just stored in a stockpile (like everything else).  As individual dwarfs don't own coin, no hauling is required bar moving the coin to your stockpile (vault) in the first place.

You now have the opportunity for treasure vaults (for adventure mode and planning for in fortress mode).  TC mandates can be connected to the requirements for coin - i.e. every time coin levels drop below the required level, TC creates a mandate for coin minting (to be stored in your vault).  Rather than a TC failed mandate resulting in current punishment, set it that if TC is happy (no mandates), no further adjustment.  If TC unhappy (has mandated coin), EVERY dwarf in your fortress receives a bad thought.  Gives the player the oppoturnity to ignore the mandate and not mint coin for no penalty other than a constant bad thought, which itself is only a concern if you are near a tantrum spiral.

We now have player controlled thought control (mint enough coins, or don't bother).  We also have player controlled limitations for game complexity (player doesn't mint coin, and doesn't activate the higher game functions until player is ready to).  Its the idea of, say, building a barracks for soldiers, then choosing to build a stable so the barracks will now produce horsemen as well - if you want the complexity of dealing with horsemen, you can, but footmen are perfectly adequate for the job at hand.

[Richards]

LordNagash, you're right about him going around when there are physical coins to collect. I'm not sure now if the money does go in a black hole. The wiki says it gets given to the nobles.

Grendus, the trick behind this method is that while it's not done completely by fictional credit, the dwarves will only stop by the bank to get more money when they need to buy something and even then it's not hauled. Why do it behind the scenes, (e.g. meaning credit only), when this method allows more possibilities. I'm sure that you've just gotten familiar to the credit system now in place.

The only negative effect is somewhat like you were saying Maw about a lack of coins. When there is a run on the bank, (a dwarf tries to go the bank and finds that his money isn't there), the dwarves receive a bad thought. I figure anything much more complicated or punishing than this is just a hindrance to the goals future DF arcs incorporate.  You shouldn't worry about the penalty of coinage when you've got a nation to conquer.

The idea of shops only functioning after you manufacture coins does make sense. That'd only happen if Toady removed the credit backup system though.

[Pilsu]

Shops are currently owned by random dwarves and steal random shit from you. Seeing as the means of production and the goods themselves are owned by the state, shouldn't the shopkeepers be appointed by the state and money earned by the store return to the treasury?

You could always pay dwarves a cut of the treasury at the end of the year depending on how many months they did work in. Does run the problem of the more stingy dwarves just hoarding the coins until they are none left though. I guess everyone has to eat so the player could set a line below which food and drink become free. Either that or handle it with escalating taxation. Either way, the player should be responsible for handling his own economy, a daunting task.

[Hyndis]

Coinage will only be useful once hauling is better implemented.

Just have dwarves keep all coins on them. Perhaps coin purses or other similar things can hold the coins. But dwarves will need to be able to move multiple coins around, and to hand off multiple coins at a time for this to work properly.

Lets say a dwarf has 100 coins on him, and he wants to buy a plump helmet. This will cost him 25 coins.

If it takes 51 tasks to complete this transaction (25 tasks delivering coins by buyer, 25 tasks for picking up coins by seller, 1 to haul away the plump helmet) then your fortress would grind to a halt and probably starve to death while everyone is hauling coins one at a time.

But if this could be reduced to two tasks, then it would be a lot better.

Urist owns the shop. Urist buys plump helmets from the farm and stocks his shop with plump helmets.
Bombrek is hungry. Bombrek walks to the shop, meets Urist.
Bombrek gives Urist 25 coins. These coins transfer from Bombrek's inventory to Urist's inventory. A plump helmet transfers from the shop to Bombrek's inventory.

Urist is now richer and Bombrek now has a snack.



Now this is a real economy! But it does rely on hauling tasks to be greatly consolidated. Similar improvements could be made for seeds or other small items that make no sense to be hauled individually.

[Richards]

That's the idea Hyndis. Coins would stack in the coin purse like items stack in the adventurers backpack, a fill up at the bank would be instant and numerous coins added to the coin purses capacity and purchasing items would take one transaction. Coins wouldn't be hauled themselves like arrows aren't hauled by marksdwarves with quivers. Coins to a stock pile would be however.

[Joakim]

In a treasure vault you have treasure chests, not treasure bins. Right?

[Richards]

Right, my mistake.

[Pilsu]

Hauling has been discussed to death, any suggestions are of course made by the assumption it'd be fixed first

[QuakeIV]

Hauling has been discussed to death, any suggestions are of course made by the assumption it'd be fixed first

Stop bitching about every suggestion in existence, iv seen you everywhere.

[Felblood]

Hauling has been discussed to death, any suggestions are of course made by the assumption it'd be fixed first

Stop bitching about every suggestion in existence, iv seen you everywhere.

Don't rise to him, Quake. It just let's him derail the thread with yet another stupid argument, wasting everyone's time.

I like the idea of coins being put in a special container, like a wallet or purse, because it allows dwarves to haul multiple types of coins at once, in addition to being able to carry multiple stacks of the same type of coin. This is a thing that will continue to be useful even after proper re-stacking is implemented.

In fact, if wallet use can be made sufficiently convienient, I would advocate dwarves with considerable wealth, carrying "pocket change" so they don't have to run to the back/vault/stockpile/bedroom floor, every time they want to pick up a snack.

In fact, it could be considered a reward, for minting enough coins, that all your dwarves carry some of their wealth with them, and don't need to take a trip to the bank.

For that to have any meaning there needs to be some sort of comparable cost to simply paying your workers in goods and services, through the account system, as that is currently seamless and perfect.

[QuakeIV]

Hauling has been discussed to death, any suggestions are of course made by the assumption it'd be fixed first

Stop bitching about every suggestion in existence, iv seen you everywhere.

Don't rise to him, Quake. It just let's him derail the thread with yet another stupid argument, wasting everyone's time.

Hmm, i kinda felt that after i posted, but i didnt wanna edit...


AT ANY RATE!

The coin idea is pretty awesome, i get to see my dwarves form a litttle realistic economy, one dude gets hungry, he goes to the cat biscuit stall, the cat buiscit seller then buys a couch for his family, then the furniture salesman has his walls smoothed.

Heh, i always seem to get into 'those cute little dwarves mode' whenever i talk about them in that perspective.

[Felblood]

How much coin ca a dwarf reasonably carry, without impairing his ability to function, though?

Are we going to crush a no-skill, no-stat hauler, under the combined weight of the table he's carrying and his wallet, forcing his to drag it across the map with agonizing slowness?