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[Free Beer]

Free Beer, I won't answer your suspicions, not yet anyway, because I've already done that a bazillion times today from pretty much everybody. You can answer mine, instead. Somebody could accuse you of lurking, and they would be right. You only pop in to ask questions, you don't interject into any discussions unless somebody asks you, and the only other time you participate is to deliver an accusation.

Is there any particular reason why you're trying to stay out of the fray?

Goodness gracious, I can't believe nobody asked this sooner. Free Beer, you voted for BloodBeard at the end of Day 1, and he shows up dead at the beginning of Day 2. What's behind that?

Since when was I lurking? Refer to my interrogation of Vector. I was trying to determine if he was scum and trying to get him to out his parter. That much should be obvious from the content of my posts with my having to explain it. It was certainly more effective than what you were doing with webadict.

As for BloodBeard, as I explained previously, I voted him because I thought we was scum. Refer to my original post accusing him for why I thought so.

Unless and until you explain your behavior, and answer my suspicions of you, my vote will stay on you. The longer you delay, the worse you're going to look. And believe me when I say that you don't look like town right now.

Your reasoning for not voting dakarian is void, since you tried to start a bandwagon on him anyway. If you look at webadict's immediate reaction to eduren at that start of Day Two, you'll see a motive for you killing BloodBeard: it would not raise suspicion of you, but would rather clear you. Incidentally, the only other person aside from BloodBeard who suspected you at the time was webadict, and he's not dead, despite him being a better target if he were town.

[Jim Groovester]

Fine, have it your way.

-You marked Org for death even from the beginning of Day One. You claimed Org was lurking at the beginning, but kept your vote on him anyway when you noticed he still posted. You occasionally got sidetracked with other lurkers, but you still came back to Org.

I explained why I voted for Org to dakarian. I voted him to get him to talk. He proved uncooperative and defiant. I retained my voted. webadict talked about Org's tell. I was convinced. As I said to dakarian, I can't defend my vote beyond my original reasoning.

-You were very jumpy during Day One. You asked that I clarify the context of a post that was addressed to BloodBeard. Why? Obviously you must have thought it was addressed to you. Paranoid about being suspected, are you?

I was legitimately confused about whom you were referring to. I figured it was BloodBeard, since you quoted him, but you posted after dakarian, and referred to 'you' without clarifying. It's important to get people's suspicions straight.

-You defended Vector on multiple occasions. Defending other people does not help the town. If someone is being accused or questioned, the intent is to determine that person's guilt. If someone were interested in your guilt, they'd question you instead.

That's crap. If I can defend somebody when I think they're town, I do it successfully, and they later prove to be town, I saved the town from an unnecessary lynch. Ta da! I helped the town.

If I defend somebody, it's because I think the arguments don't stack up against them. I defended ToonyMan, because I thought his behavior was in line with the way he normally acts, and he seemed genuinely frustrated that people were going to lynch him. I defended Vector, because I thought webadict's accusations were far overblown, and he gave me no reason to suspect him. I was going to defend eduren from Vector's suspicion of a webadict/eduren pair, but then eduren started to act suspiciously again.

-As previously noted, I suspect webadict heavily. His above described suspect behavior regarding you, combined with the obvious lack of relationship between Vector and webadict, leads me to believe you are probably webadict's partner in scum.
-On the off-chance that Vector, my other main suspect, is scum, the strong connection between the two of you leads me to believe that you would also be his partner in scum.

I seem to be two people at once with you, but either way, I'm scum, huh? I can't defend myself if you're willing to believe all possibilities of my guilt at the same time.

If my campaign against webadict was ineffectual, then that means that I must suck at argumentation, rather than some scheme to only give webadict a decent, not token, amount of suspicion. I truly meant everything I said about him, and I can safely say that even as my suspicions about him begin vanishing.

Any attempts by webadict or Vector to defend me, or them just stating their reduced suspicions, were completely unsolicited by me, much in the same way me defending Vector or stating my reduced suspicions about webadict were unsolicited by them.

-dakarian is willing to risk the fate of the entire game on your scumminess. Something has to be up with that. I'd expect a scum ploy like this if it were lynch or lose, but we've still got at least one, probably two more days left.

And he's risking it foolishly. I think you're giving his gamble more credit than it deserves.

I'm not naive enough to believe that if I were to pull some crazy gamble, that you'd be willing to believe me. But that's your suggestion, anyway, that there's truth in whatever somebody's gamble is, if he's willing to gamble something big with it, despite how idiotic the gamble may be.

dakarian can choose to vote for me without deciding to drag the rest of the town with him or force it into a false dichotomy. I think it's stupid for him to try to do so, and very suspicious on its own.

-You're trying to organize a bandwagon on dakarian without actually taking the risk of voting for him. It's been repeated numerous times in this game: caution is a scum tell.

eduren proposed he and I call dakarian's bluff. It turns out he was trying to lure me out, or something. eduren's reasoning isn't very clear on this issue.

But I fell for it. The only way to call dakarian's bluff was to get a guaranteed lynch on him, since he was and currently is within no danger to be lynched. Then maybe he would start changing his tune once the votes started piling on him, or he would keep up his spiel. If the former, a scum tell, if the latter, a town tell.

So yes, I called for other people to help me and eduren call his bluff. If there weren't enough people, then the whole exercise would be a wasted effort, and we might as well not even bother trying.

Did I answer your suspicions?

Now, more grilling.

If I accuse you of lurking it's because you seem uninvolved most of the time. You only pop in to ask questions about other people, and you only express your opinions when asked. You never volunteer them on your own. That's caution, and as we all know, caution is a scum tell. If you were interested in the discussion as opposed to the final lynch, you'd be somewhat more willing to give your opinions about what's going on, I think. However, giving people your opinions can lead people to suspecting you, after all, so you hold them tightly to your chest.

The only person that you've questioned that doesn't meet this pattern is ToonyMan. Instead you gave him the benefit of the doubt, and you even cleared him. The selective nature of this is suspect.

Your behavior today constitutes bandwagoning. You voted for Vector after webadict did. Once suspicion on him began winding down, you voted for me. You don't seem to take initiative and accuse people on your own, only after somebody else does. Again, caution.

But in Day 1, you accused BloodBeard. I looked over your posts, and your accusations seemed pretty trumped up, especially for the kinds of activity that went on during Day 1. Then, during the night, BloodBeard was killed, and you voted for him. I guess you decided to finish the job, then, figuring correctly that BloodBeard's suspicions were far more likely to be discussed than BloodBeard's accusers.

Free Beer, you're the scum. Am I certain of it? I'm hardly certain of anything anymore. But you've skated by completely without suspicion, for mostly suspicious reasons, and it's time somebody start grilling you.

[dakarian]

Sigh... Jim, he has a point. Can you explain why your vote stays on Web?

Because I will not lend credibility to dakarian's plan by voting for him. He directly challenged me, and I refused. So he challenged me even more, and I still refused. So I got the feeling that this brilliant plan of his requires my vote to lend it legitimacy. So I refused.

What else would you like? His gamble is idiotic. He's trying to portray himself as some sort of martyr, as a savior to the town, but he's under absolutely zero threat to be lynched today. He's trying to define the terms of the discussion as a binary choice between either Vector or himself, and he broke those terms by voting for me. His whole gamble seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me detailing webadict and dakarian's suspect relationship.

webadict and dakarian are working together. webadict is the smart one, and dakarian will continue to make mistakes. So my vote stays on webadict. Since he's better at concealing his guilt, he's the more dangerous scum. dakarian, on the other hand, will likely make several more mistakes, and nobody will forget this brilliant plan of his come tomorrow. He can be dealt with later.

He's not the only one that can make wild gambles...

I propose that we call his "bluff". According to him it won't matter if he is lynched so i propose that we do just that. The only reason you haven't jumped on it is because it is not certain that you will get the necessary votes.

If You vote for dakarian, then i will do likewise. (I assume that Vector will do so also).

If dakarian is scum, as you claim, then this offer will be impossible to turn down.

After you agreed, Toonyman voted for me.  If you voted then, Eduren would join you.  That would've been three.  At that point, I would have the most votes on me.

What the Whiteboard would be
Jim Groovester: dakarian
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Vector
Dakarian: ToonyMan, Jim Groovester, eduren,

Unless Free beer, web (who is defending you), and vector (who also defends you) dogpiled you, I would be dead.

You don't need 4 people to lynch.  You need most votes when the day is over. 


I don't like that you keep swearing that I'm scum enough to be lynched...tomorrow.  If I died scum, it would mark you credible, destroy all of my alligations (which are the biggest thing blocking you at the moment), and be more than enough to finish off web.  "I" am accusing Web. 

You scream bluff, yet make every excuse in the book to avoid voting for me.  Now that Toony's off of me and everyone has their own suspicions again, you can safely keep saying I'm bluffing and leave it at that.

I keep saying: If I'm scum, vote for me.  If I'm town, stop criminalising me.  Vector and Web chose the latter. Toony, the former till he got distracted by Web.  You're voting like I'm town but talking like I'm scum.  That's confusing and waffling.  Confusion is very scummy.

[dakarian]

Realized the "I am accuse web" is rather random.  By that I mean this:

I am accusing web, along with you.  If web dies scum, it'll still leave the both of us in this mess.  Yes, you COULD kill a scum THEN try my Bet.  I'm not sure you're THAT sure of web's guilt to risk that though.  The easier solution to test your theory is me first, THEN web.

[Jim Groovester]

I thought I said I thought you were town while I was in the middle of insulting you?

You... you're stupid, but I think you're town, just like Org. It's still suspicious of you, but only an arrogant braggart with a messiah complex would start such a stupid gamble.

That hasn't changed during my accusation of Free Beer.

And I shouldn't be insulting. I can answer your suspicions without being a jackass about them. But your persistence, and that you've basically said the exact same thing twenty times in a row, were angering me.

[Vector]

I am going to be AFK for a little while (packing and getting the house ready), though hopefully I will be able to come back before the end of the voting.

If I am not able to, however, conditionally vote for whoever has the most votes.  I'd like to make sure that there's at least a lynch.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
Free Beer: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian
webadict: ToonyMan


Vector, there is no conditional voting in this mafia, so you'll have to pick someone.

[Alexhans]

I don't know about Meph but I DONT ALLOW conditional votes. 

That's not mafia.

Why?  in brief, it doesn't attach a responsability that a vote should have.  Multiple conditioned votes can form paradoxes.  You can't know when there's gonna be a hammer or what.  The terms are ambiguous.  Its unfair in deadline, etc, etc.  I dont have much time.  Bye.

EDIT:  ninja'd by Meph.  I'm glad.

[dakarian]

Apologies for the anger, first off. 

It's not so bad to be a little rough.  A major point of this game is to shake people like a tree until their emotions spill out.  Once they lose their control, they'll better show their true colors. 

Thus a big reason why I'm confrontational.  I want to push my accuser until they break.  I'll be honest, the whole "Doesn't matter what you say, you're dead" was less me being egotistical and more trying to panic you. 


That said..the vote stays on you.  I'm glad you've declared me town now.  However, you did it after I said, and repeated, and repeated that it was the way others have protected themselves.  That was NOT your argument when we started this merry-go-bomb.  I'll be honest, had your 'insulting' post come first before everything else, I would've at least held back the Bet and turned to plain old WoTish grilling.  Rather blah that you fling that out NOW of all things.

I have about one hour left before I go to work.  I'll go back and read things out a bit (no time for a full scan though).  Best I can give at this point.

[Free Beer]

I explained why I voted for Org to dakarian. I voted him to get him to talk. He proved uncooperative and defiant. I retained my voted. webadict talked about Org's tell. I was convinced. As I said to dakarian, I can't defend my vote beyond my original reasoning.

Why not? We know Org is town now. Are you not willing to take responsibility for your prior actions? It would certainly be consistent with your behavior now.

I was legitimately confused about whom you were referring to. I figured it was BloodBeard, since you quoted him, but you posted after dakarian, and referred to 'you' without clarifying. It's important to get people's suspicions straight.

Then why did you bother to jump in? You would have no reason to do so unless you thought you were involved. If my post was unclear to one of the people I was addressing, they would have called me on it.

That's crap. If I can defend somebody when I think they're town, I do it successfully, and they later prove to be town, I saved the town from an unnecessary lynch. Ta da! I helped the town.

If I defend somebody, it's because I think the arguments don't stack up against them. I defended ToonyMan, because I thought his behavior was in line with the way he normally acts, and he seemed genuinely frustrated that people were going to lynch him. I defended Vector, because I thought webadict's accusations were far overblown, and he gave me no reason to suspect him. I was going to defend eduren from Vector's suspicion of a webadict/eduren pair, but then eduren started to act suspiciously again.

It's not crap, it's buddying, which is another scum tell. You'll notice that buddying figured prominently in my accusation of BloodBeard as well.

I seem to be two people at once with you, but either way, I'm scum, huh? I can't defend myself if you're willing to believe all possibilities of my guilt at the same time.

If my campaign against webadict was ineffectual, then that means that I must suck at argumentation, rather than some scheme to only give webadict a decent, not token, amount of suspicion. I truly meant everything I said about him, and I can safely say that even as my suspicions about him begin vanishing.

Any attempts by webadict or Vector to defend me, or them just stating their reduced suspicions, were completely unsolicited by me, much in the same way me defending Vector or stating my reduced suspicions about webadict were unsolicited by them.

You're related to both webadict and Vector, at the same time, whether you like it or not. You aren't two different people. My logic is very simple:

If webadict is scum, I'm 60% sure you're the other scum.
If Vector is scum, I'm 90% sure you're the other scum.
If Vector is scum, I'm 90% sure webadict is not scum.
If webadict is scum, I'm 90% sure Vector is not scum.

All of the above can be discerned immediately from my questioning of Vector. The evidence is all there.

All of these together push you to the top of my suspect list.

Can you explain why webadict is defending you? Can you explain why he only came down on you lightly, while he came down on Vector hardcore? If you're both scum there is an obvious reason why.

Can you explain why you are defending Vector and he is accepting the defense? If you're both scum then there is an obvious reason why.

And he's risking it foolishly. I think you're giving his gamble more credit than it deserves.

I'm not naive enough to believe that if I were to pull some crazy gamble, that you'd be willing to believe me. But that's your suggestion, anyway, that there's truth in whatever somebody's gamble is, if he's willing to gamble something big with it, despite how idiotic the gamble may be.

dakarian can choose to vote for me without deciding to drag the rest of the town with him or force it into a false dichotomy. I think it's stupid for him to try to do so, and very suspicious on its own.

Yes, it's stupid. That's why I am not buying into the "lynch dakrian now to prove he's town!" plan. But he would have no reason to do it if he were scum, and if he were town then that means he has some reason for wanting you dead so badly.

eduren proposed he and I call dakarian's bluff. It turns out he was trying to lure me out, or something. eduren's reasoning isn't very clear on this issue.

But I fell for it. The only way to call dakarian's bluff was to get a guaranteed lynch on him, since he was and currently is within no danger to be lynched. Then maybe he would start changing his tune once the votes started piling on him, or he would keep up his spiel. If the former, a scum tell, if the latter, a town tell.

So yes, I called for other people to help me and eduren call his bluff. If there weren't enough people, then the whole exercise would be a wasted effort, and we might as well not even bother trying.

The only way to call dakarian if he is bluffing is to LYNCH HIM, not try to get everyone else to lynch him while you sit back safe in your little cubbyhole. Grow a pair already.

If I accuse you of lurking it's because you seem uninvolved most of the time. You only pop in to ask questions about other people, and you only express your opinions when asked. You never volunteer them on your own. That's caution, and as we all know, caution is a scum tell. If you were interested in the discussion as opposed to the final lynch, you'd be somewhat more willing to give your opinions about what's going on, I think. However, giving people your opinions can lead people to suspecting you, after all, so you hold them tightly to your chest.

The only person that you've questioned that doesn't meet this pattern is ToonyMan. Instead you gave him the benefit of the doubt, and you even cleared him. The selective nature of this is suspect.

I already explained why I am hesitant to give my opinions at the beginning of Day Two. It causes people to clam up and OMGUS me instead of continuing to explain themselves. I want people to explain themselves. As previously noted, I was giving my opinions on Day One.

Your behavior today constitutes bandwagoning. You voted for Vector after webadict did. Once suspicion on him began winding down, you voted for me. You don't seem to take initiative and accuse people on your own, only after somebody else does. Again, caution.

I was first on Vector, thank you very much. I was also first and only on BloodBeard, and first on ToonyMan.

At the time I left Vector to attack you, Vector had three people on him while you only had one. That's, like, the opposite of bandwagoning. And webadict jumped off Vector at approximately the same time that I did. Are you even paying attention?

But in Day 1, you accused BloodBeard. I looked over your posts, and your accusations seemed pretty trumped up, especially for the kinds of activity that went on during Day 1. Then, during the night, BloodBeard was killed, and you voted for him. I guess you decided to finish the job, then, figuring correctly that BloodBeard's suspicions were far more likely to be discussed than BloodBeard's accusers.

If I were scum and webadict were not scum, I'd kill webadict. His credibility was completely shot after he led the town on an Org lynch, and there was zero chance he'd be protected by the Doctor. He'd also be a huge threat to the mafia if he were town, doubly so if he were the Cop.

If I both I and webadict were scum, I'd kill ToonyMan or eduren. As previously noted, mafia often choose people based on who they suspect, so I'd go after someone who suspects webadict as a WIFOM.

Free Beer, you're the scum. Am I certain of it? I'm hardly certain of anything anymore. But you've skated by completely without suspicion, for mostly suspicious reasons, and it's time somebody start grilling you.

So you're saying you're confused and you're just going to OMGUS me? How quaint. Wasn't that what got us all on Vector in the first place?

[webadict]

Don't you DARE lynch Web over me.  If you think I'm scum, lynch me FIRST.  If you can't lynch me now, then don't bother later.

 
The only reason why you would NOT lynch me first is if you feel that I'm town THAT strongly.  If you believe that I'm scum then kill me off.  Seeing as I've derailed this thread over and over, even if my Bet didn't exist, "I" would be the most dangerous scum.  If I'm not lynched now and a townie dies today, I'll easily mark you as "see?  That person's mafia after all!  They KNEW not to hit me now because it would prove me right.  Now they want the final town lynch".

If we kill a scum, then, and ONLY then, am I willing to be offed.. it would still confirm me and give the town time to save themselves later.  I just refuse to be the second town lynch.


Btw, a good reason why I keep on Jim/Web is because just about every other argument has always been Me/Someoneelse.  It's also silly that, no matter what, I seem to be the one to kill 'afterwards'.

How about, instead of lynching a townie, we try lynching a suspected scum? I'd much rather try that, and I'm just going to say this now: I think it's eduren and ToonyMan right now. Maybe I'm crazy or wrong, but I'm taking a guess.

eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?

As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.

I actually cannot believe that you said this.  I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod.  Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them.  However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first?  We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.

Worse, it seems that you're getting credit for trying "hard lynches" by letting everyone else soften up the potential scum while you lurk about and occasionally vote.  Please explain this behavior.

Because this seems like an unimaginably stupid and scummy thing to say, I'm going to give you space to backpedal and rethink your words before I vote you.  Be warned: I think you've just signed your own death warrant, especially if you don't reply in a timely manner.

I agree.

eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?

As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.

If you thought he was a good lynch, then why were you willing to vote dakarian if Jim voted dakarian?

At that point i thought Jim to be the scummiest (still do) and thought that if we both called dakarian on his bluff then we might have a better standing tomorrow to take him down.

Why is it that you contribute nothing to the conversation, except to say, "Hmm, that's interesting. Why this, this and this?"

Im pretty sure that that contributes to conversation. I voice my opinion, ask a few followup questions and update people on my suspicions.

Who do you think is scum?

Jim and Toony OR Jim and Vector.

ToonyMan came out of NOWHERE there. I also disagree, because you don't contribute to the actual conversation that's happening. You're sitting back.

I actually cannot believe that you said this.  I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod.  Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them.  However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first?  We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.

You kidding? The last time I actively pursued someone I thought scum, I lost all credibility! To be honest I wasn't reading as closely as I should've. I ended up going with the flow and believing the mafia pros!

Once again the only thing Im guilty of is bad townsmanship!

No one is guilty of bad townsmanship unless they are scum, or they are not contributing. Anything you say can be helpful and if you lose your credibility, oh well. You regain it. You can't sit back and follow.

I am going to vote you, eduren, for your acknoledgements of poor gameplay, and your unhelpfulness.

However, I'm not sure whether or not we should lynch ToonyMan, since his gameplay is terribly hard to read. Look at Time Travel Mafia/Vote Mafia 1 and see if it's the same.

Apologies for the anger, first off. 

It's not so bad to be a little rough.  A major point of this game is to shake people like a tree until their emotions spill out.  Once they lose their control, they'll better show their true colors. 

Thus a big reason why I'm confrontational.  I want to push my accuser until they break.  I'll be honest, the whole "Doesn't matter what you say, you're dead" was less me being egotistical and more trying to panic you. 


That said..the vote stays on you.  I'm glad you've declared me town now.  However, you did it after I said, and repeated, and repeated that it was the way others have protected themselves.  That was NOT your argument when we started this merry-go-bomb.  I'll be honest, had your 'insulting' post come first before everything else, I would've at least held back the Bet and turned to plain old WoTish grilling.  Rather blah that you fling that out NOW of all things.

I have about one hour left before I go to work.  I'll go back and read things out a bit (no time for a full scan though).  Best I can give at this point.

I think we're misdirecting our attentions. It doesn't make sense that TWO people would defend someone and that they'd be teammates with him, considering that he could only have one teammate. If anything, those two people would be more suspicious.

I'm just thinking, but I'd rather we lynch either ToonyMan or eduren.

[Jim Groovester]

Free Beer's wall of text

What? No word on your selective defense of ToonyMan?

[Free Beer]

Free Beer's wall of text

What? No word on your selective defense of ToonyMan?

I never defended ToonyMan, and he is far from cleared.

Are you going to defend yourself or not?

[Free Beer]

MOD: How much time do we have left? If it's less than an hour, can we get an extension? Almost half of the players haven't voted and have said they would return to vote.

[dakarian]

@ web: refering to Vector and you defending Jim?

Theory:

Vector had no prior reason to suspect Jim. That, along with the defense against your attack would cause Vector to feel better about Jim. 

Remember, the theory I threw was that Jim would Bus Web, causing Jim to be the hero.  Risky, but had I not jumped in, it would've been VERY effective, especially with Townie Vector vouching for it all.  We were suspecting Web long before anything else showed up.  Had Vector been lynched, it would've been a win for mafia, since it would fully 'certify' Jim.  Why would a scum defend a townie after all?

Eduren seems willing to follow the flow for the most part.  Why would he go after me instead of Jim when he was willing to go after Vector?  Because Jim kept swearing "there wasn't enough votes".  Eduren was calling JIM's bluff.  As such, I don't see it as enough to mark him, especially compared to others.