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[Vector]

All right... first response to the stuff that's happened while I was away.

Vector, Free Beer, what do you think of my evidence on dakarian and webadict's suspect relationship? It looked like it may have been lost in the middle of dakarian's reckless gamble.

To be honest, I can't find very much on this... in fact, you've said very little.  What you've mostly said is that dakarian is following web and listening to his ideas.  What I think you've missed is that dakarian picks two or three people he considers suspicious, throws himself at them bodily, and seems to implicitly trust everyone else.  When he suspected eduren (following our lead), he defended the four people eduren attacked.  He has a very rigid mentality, which flips after a certain amount of proof has been supplied.

My problem is that I'm too passive.  Dakarian's problem is that he trusts too much.  I don't think he's scum; I think he's town, with a bad habit for flamboyancy and even arrogance.  Previously, he trusted webadict.  Now he doesn't, so he's following the people he trusts (ToonyMan and myself, apparently) to wheel about and turn on webadict again.

If you have more evidence than "dakarian is a copier and is trying/tried to kill both of us," however, I would be more than happy to take a look at it.


What do you think, dakarian?  Have I judged you correctly?

[Vector]

1. Fair enough. Org turned out to be an easy lynch, and I guess you might have seemed to be just as easy. Then when you defended yourself and others gave resistance he has backed down.

2. Why would he be a NK target? Because of his experience?

3. Ill give you that, he has been sketchy under questioning. So Webadict, why so reluctant to work with us?

4. Can you explain? Quotes if you can spare them.

5. If I were to defend him i guess that I would say that was his plan. See who would follow him in order to blend in? But Im not defending him and would like to apologize for dismissing him.

2. Webadict would be an NK target because of his experience, and also because he implicitly claimed that he was the cop: that is, he said he would have absolute proof on me on the dawn of day two, which implies that he was going to check me over during the night.

4. Here are the relevant quotes:

FoS Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, and webadict for voting Org.  You basically bandwagoned the poor fellow.  Although I admit he wasn't helping us much.

[Vector] says that everyone that lynched Org is suspicious and there was no reason to, despite the fact he did [...] !

He's saying I made ToonyMan's statement, essentially.

[Vector]

eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?

As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.

I actually cannot believe that you said this.  I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod.  Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them.  However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first?  We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.

Worse, it seems that you're getting credit for trying "hard lynches" by letting everyone else soften up the potential scum while you lurk about and occasionally vote.  Please explain this behavior.

Because this seems like an unimaginably stupid and scummy thing to say, I'm going to give you space to backpedal and rethink your words before I vote you.  Be warned: I think you've just signed your own death warrant, especially if you don't reply in a timely manner.

[Vector]

4. I am answering all questions as I am aware of them, except those I have explicitly stated not answering, for reasons either publicly declared or privately held and later publicly declared. If I miss some of them, it is because I tend to skip over posts while I read sometimes.

Fair enough.  I can certainly believe that, and in the future I'll try to extract the questions from my walls of text so you won't get nailed for something you didn't see.

So, let's turn our attention to eduren, ToonyMan, or Free Beer for a second. Does anyone agree to that?

I'll go with this for now, as well.  Your logical analysis seems very astute.

I'll quote Mr.Person for my apology Vector:

You're overanalyzing, webadict.

Unvote.

Thank you, and apology accepted.  For now, unvote.  Things have gotten hideously confusing, and it seems like it's time to back off and get our heads together.

[dakarian]

"Easy Lynch" is what we use to call out scum that aren't good at being scum.  Poor scum go for the 'easy' then wonder why the town jumps them.  It's good to watch for, but saying you aren't doing it isn't enough to defend yourself.  Let's face it, most of us are newbies to the forum but NOT newbies to the game.

Btw, you're about a few pages old in your discussion.  I started pulling back on Vector around the time I started voting on you.  By then, the only thing I had on him was that you and him were linked.  Although he didn't mean it, he helped break that by showing me that other, stronger links exist.

"I" am saying that you are BUSSING Web, and had been bussing him since day 1.  You bus him, you hide under 'hero' status.  Web makes sure he focuses on Vector and NOT you so that if we trust Web, we kill Vector, Vect flips town, we kill Web, you become a hero.  If we don't trust web, we kill him, you're still a hero.

Why Web?   I helped with that with my "I'm watching you!" bit.  Then he goes and does a Burden of Proof, making me jump him.  He doesn't answer the questions well so that we DO suspect him. 

Vector is your barganing chip.  He's town, accused by 'the pro' and heavily defended by 'the newbie'.  Any attempt to go near you guys ends up with either siding with you against web or siding with web against Vector.  I start on Vector, and BOTH OF YOU make me look bad.  Funny that.  If I push harder and kill Vector, he flips town, I die.  I push on you and Web goes all out to tempt me with Vector or else risk my death.  Note, had I died that way, Web would die..but you go free.


@ Vector.. remove the 'trust' and you got my style.  I pick ONE person, perhaps two I worry about, then go ALL OUT on them.  I keep it up until they crack.  If things work right: Townies crack by gut spilling and explaining what they do.  Mafia crack by either making me look scum or trying to distract me.

I don't trust you, Vector.  I just have no evidence to use to lynch you.  Same with most everyone else.  I had my evidence: you killed it off.  Now I have none.  Going after you with no evidence makes NO sense so I back off on you.  However has the most evidence gets attacked.  I attack till they kill my evidence, then I move on.  If you don't provide that evidence, I attack till you die. THat's how I work.  Also note, this mafia turned out very....unique.  I wouldn't be so bold if things didn't go the way they did.


Fake edit:  At this point, I'm content with removing Web or Jim.  I just don't want a tie or some random person lynched.  Thus, Unvote   Vote Jim. 

[dakarian]

To update:  Jim I want for many reasons, including that poor excuse for accepting the bet, being hyper defensive of others, failing to explain himself well enough, and generally showing off more scumminess than anyone else.

Web, I am after so long as I believe him linked with Jim.  Web has been assaulted badly by Jim and yet Jim is the only one he defends when someone goes after him. 

Mix in the theory that's crazy enough to be true and thus why I aim at both of them currently.  Since I don't want a tie, my vote is currently on Jim.

[Vector]

For now.  Vote stays on Jim.  As for my request to everyone, it says: If you don't plan on voting me, then get Jim.  I'll add this: Vote jim or explain why Jim is acting like the biggest scum in all of Mafia.

Jim has defended himself, and I don't particularly care to defend him right now.  I can't explain his actions.  What I can say is that webadict has made undeniable slips (most of which I am forgiving at this point) and eduren is acting fantastically scummy.  At the moment, I don't actually think Jim is that bad.  Not everyone who follows is scum, as I have shown.

A theory.  If the bet continued, I would die, then Jim would die.  If Jim flipped town, Web, who is the only one really defending him, would be heavily suspect since Vector defended himself so well.

You know, they say that townies always take gambles.  Some gambles are too risky to take even for town, and I still think it's not really worth taking this unless it's a no-lynch vs. suspected townie lynch scenario.  We've still got time, so let's look around a little.  Sure, maybe Jim will pop up incredibly suspicious--but we shouldn't do anything dumb just because we're running out of time.  There will still be time to lynch Jim in nine hours, if everyone decides that's the best course of action.


Then, a few questions.

1. If you don't trust, then why on earth do you take cues from other players?

2. In the post just before your most recent one, who are you talking to?

[Vector]

Also, Mod:  Would you mind putting up the whiteboard when you have a chance?  This is getting pretty confusing.

Additionally, if you end up being unable to get anyone to replace me by the end of Tuesday, I was hoping we could work something out so I could stay in and come back (provided I am not lynched or killed by the mafia) on day 4 (provided, again, that we do not lose).  I will be gone for all of day three, but will return at some point on Saturday.

[dakarian]

Then, a few questions.

1. If you don't trust, then why on earth do you take cues from other players?

2. In the post just before your most recent one, who are you talking to?

1. Even the baby-eating bum biting his foot in the middle of the interstate can have a good idea.  Just because I can't trust you're 100% town doesn't mean that I have to treat you as scum.  Even when I thought you were scum, I STILL listened to you talk about Web.  I am listening to Jim and Web now, and half ready to hear something that will make me stop gunning for them.  Perhaps I missed part of Jim's post, but he hasn't dispelled much of the suspicion I had of him.  Many, when faced with my Bet, said "A townie kill isn't worth it".  Even Web suggested as much. 

Jim?  "You're scum but I won't be 'baited' into voting for you".

WTF does THAT mean!? 

Web, I guess, hasn't FAILED my attack yet since he's yet to post.  Jim, though.. I can't even think of a REASON why a townie would act that way... and neither can you or anyone else.  What's left? He's "Too scummy?"   Toonyman is our resident "very odd acting person" and even he could at least make a proper vote.  Perhaps you are right on Web and that I should give him more time.

Jim's had plenty of time in my eyes.  You said as much: I pull away when I have enough proof to my accusations.  "Someone else looks odd" just makes me think "Jim might be with someone else and not Web". 

One good thing.. going after Jim means I can relax a bit and use Day 3 to look into Web and this new thing with Eduren.

[Eduren]

I actually cannot believe that you said this.  I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod.  Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them.  However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first?  We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.

You kidding? The last time I actively pursued someone I thought scum, I lost all credibility! To be honest I wasn't reading as closely as I should've. I ended up going with the flow and believing the mafia pros!

Once again the only thing Im guilty of is bad townsmanship!

[Jim Groovester]

Mix in the theory that's crazy enough to be true and thus why I aim at both of them currently.  Since I don't want a tie, my vote is currently on Jim.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Things crazy enough to just might work only exist in movie land.

Anyways, your post doesn't make any sense. If I am scum, I've been scum the whole game. My behavior is not consistent with being scum, especially with whom you've laid out to be my partner.

If my, and implicitly webadict's, plan were for me to go after webadict so that I would look innocent, why didn't I accuse him on Day 1? I had several opportunities to do so. One was when webadict challenged me. Another was when I asked him about his certainty on Vector and Org. Another was when you accused him. Why did I wait until Day 2?

Why did I kill BloodBeard during the night when he was suspicious of me? Why would I want to naturally lead the investigation in my direction?

Why did I spend all that time and effort going after webadict, and why did webadict spend all that time going after me when we were working together? Why did we both insult each other and accuse each other of fallacious logic? Why did we treat each other like such enemies if we were partners?

What good is it for me to go after my partner like that anyway? What if I'm successful in my attacks? There's strength in numbers, even for Mafia. Provided everything works perfectly for me, having a partner lets me end the game at the beginning of Day 4, while being by myself I can only win at the end of Day 4. That's a long stretch of the game where I could slip up. No, too dangerous, by far. Better to have a partner, and do what I can to keep him around.

No, your suspicions are incorrect, because the plan you accuse me of having is stupid. My behavior is inconsistent with being mafia.

Let's face it, most of us are newbies to the forum but NOT newbies to the game.

This is the first time I've ever played a game of mafia. Surprised?

Further, I've explained my reasons for refusing your challenge. I explained it to you when you first challenged me, and I explained it to eduren when he asked: I refused to lend credence to your idiotic gamble by following it. It's like the kid on the playground trying to get you to punch him so that the teacher will see you do it, and you'll get punished. Better to outright refuse, and maybe he'll punch you while everybody's watching. And you did. You accused me when it was supposed to be a false dichotomy between you and Vector. Yet somehow, in a twist of fate, I'm in the wrong for not accusing you, and you're in the right for accusing me.

Besides, when you challenged me, webadict was a bigger threat. Now that webadict has been adequately cleared in my mind, eduren is behaving suspiciously. Three people have pointed it, one of whom suspected me and still may, one of whom accuses me now.

You... you're stupid, but I think you're town, just like Org. It's still suspicious of you, but only an arrogant braggart with a messiah complex would start such a stupid gamble.

[Jim Groovester]

As best as I can tell, this is the white board:

Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian
Vector: eduren
webadict: ToonyMan

webadict, Vector, and I have rescinded our votes against each other. ToonyMan has changed his vote wildly, from Vector to dakarian to webadict. Free Beer changed his vote from Vector to me. dakarian is changing his vote wildly as well, from Vector to me to webadict and then back to me.

So that's where everybody stands.

I can't decide on who to vote. I suppose I'll have to wake up in time and decide.

[Eduren]

Crap, forgot i was still voting. Unvote. Ill decide in the morning.

[ToonyMan]

Seeing that dakarian is trying to separate himself from webadict now, I'm guessing dakarian is the other scum.  Don't lynch Jim.  :V  Lynch webadict and then dakarian.

[dakarian]

Don't you DARE lynch Web over me.  If you think I'm scum, lynch me FIRST.  If you can't lynch me now, then don't bother later.

 
The only reason why you would NOT lynch me first is if you feel that I'm town THAT strongly.  If you believe that I'm scum then kill me off.  Seeing as I've derailed this thread over and over, even if my Bet didn't exist, "I" would be the most dangerous scum.  If I'm not lynched now and a townie dies today, I'll easily mark you as "see?  That person's mafia after all!  They KNEW not to hit me now because it would prove me right.  Now they want the final town lynch".

If we kill a scum, then, and ONLY then, am I willing to be offed.. it would still confirm me and give the town time to save themselves later.  I just refuse to be the second town lynch.


Btw, a good reason why I keep on Jim/Web is because just about every other argument has always been Me/Someoneelse.  It's also silly that, no matter what, I seem to be the one to kill 'afterwards'.