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[Eduren]

Not exactly the 11th hour. We have until Tuesday.

[Vector]

I think he means "I'm about to die, and they're pretty sure of themselves."

[Vector]

And to dakarian:

The first WoT on page 26 is where I confronted webadict with some of his errors.  If you want me to document the many, many questions webadict has ignored, I can do that.  It will take a while, though.

[dakarian]

Now, for the rest, though there's not much to say.  You asked if that was gut-spilling enough.   I say that was VERY MUCH a gut-spill, and helpful in answering to a lot of the accusations. 

A thing about my fear: To me, this is the game maker.  Whatever we set up here will determine how the rest of the game will flow.  There won't be much discussion tomorrow, just a quick sum up of today with a quick lynch.  I honestly believe that if we lynch a scum today, we'll win, even if we lynch town tomorrow. 

Want to know something weird that may derail all this?  I could set the motions of the game very easily I think..by choosing two people, then demanding everyone to lynch me.  I swear, the two I pick will die.  It's just the smallest doubt that I may pick wrong that holds me, since two town lynches is our loss. 

Your words about web hit that doubt square on.  That's why I want your evidence of him.  I'm not going to listen to Jim anymore.. he's distracting and screwy, and OMGUSing.  Why did I listen to Web and go for you then?  I thought "Vector will flip scum, then I just have to beat Web in a debate to get Jim killed over me.. or at least make sure the town goes for Jim over Web if I can't beat Web".  If I'm afraid, Jim's in a panic over seeing you die, even if it leads to his victory. 

That's the one thing that just keeps nagging at me, and, if you noticed, I keep coming back to it: the idea of you and Jim being linked.  It's been the elephant in the room as far as your posts have been, but it's been a major point of my argument.  As of now it's just about the only thing left not discussed enough.  The others seem to have picked up on it as well. 

I'll be blunt, you two are acting like masons.  For all that Jim says he's not truly marking you town, he's willing to bet the game on your innocence.  You don't mention him much but you've never put to post "Perhaps he is scum".  Web WANTS me dead.  I stop my aggression to listen when you say you have proof on Web.  We're not friends.  You two clearly are. 

I'm giving you some credit over all of your arguments (thus why I'm not dealing with them directly at the moment).  This is the only point you have NOT brought up.  It's the point that's putting the noose on your head. 

So, why WON'T you even consider the idea of Jim being mafia?

Answer that, and provide that info on web, and..well.. we'll see.

Fake edit: Just read you last reply Vector.  I'll head back to P26 and read.  Write up if there's anything else. 

[Free Beer]

1. Jim Groovester's argument has little bearing on my own.  Though I am of course thankful for him defending me, I can see situations in which webadict's sudden attacks on me could be valid.  The rest of the dodging and weaving (and especially the lying), however, appears quite suspect.

2. I will admit that my actions were fairly similar to Jim Groovester's on the first day, but (from my end, at least), they were essentially independent.  His reasoning seemed fine to me, and I don't have any strong suspicion of him (though some behavior did look vaguely like bandwagoning.  It seems pointless, though, to suspect every second-voter).  If I were to throw out a situation in which he might be scum, however, I'd go with a link between him and ToonyMan, with Toony providing the frustrated post and Jim pointing it out here.

Of course, I don't believe that.  I'm just throwing it out there as one of many far-fetched possibilities.

You mentioned that you are thankful for Jim's defense of you, and in fact have not defended yourself on at least one occasion due to this fact. Why do you think he is defending you?

And could you elaborate on your opinion of Jim's argument against webadict; especially the part where he implicitly claimed Cop but has yet to deliver the goods?

If you are wrong, and webadict is town, what role do you think he has? Townsperson, Cop, or Doctor?

And what do you think of ToonyMan's planned scenario for the game?

1. To dakarian, ToonyMan, and Free Beer: Why does it not worry you that webadict never answers any of the questions posed to him, and did not respond to my defense?

webadict's posts, especially his response to my initial attack in the beginning of Day One, give me the distinct impression that webadict intends to reveal as little information about himself as possible. He's putting on his best poker face, insofar as a poker face can be put on over the internet. I'm not worried about the fact that he isn't responding to your defense, because I already know that even if he did, he would not be giving any useful information anyway.

[Jim Groovester]

I've stated that webadict and dakarian were working together, so I might as well highlight the suspicious exchange they had. I can deliver a wall of text for my evidence, if you'd like.

First, webadict is not giving dakarian the same level of scrutiny as he did towards me and Vector, although 'scrutiny' is a relative term here. webadict, who stated that he suspected dakarian during their conversation, is not seizing immediately upon dakarian's suspect tells as he's done in the past for other people. He is also amicable instead of confrontational, which is atypical for him for when he's talking to someone he suspects.

Second, dakarian has delivered several suspect tells that everybody seems to be ignoring. First, he stated that he's open to listen to other evidence in regards to webadict or ToonyMan. I find it extraordinarily suspicious that he would even mention other targets that he would be willing to go after. He also mentioned webadict as a potential target, which is inconsistent with the position he adopted during their conversation, where he tried to prove himself as town to webadict. So, according to dakarian, he's open to evidence against webadict, but webadict is town, and feels it's necessary to get webadict to admit this. Inconsistent, to say the least. Besides, there's plenty of reason to suspect webadict, so dakarian is deliberately ignoring that evidence.

Third, I find it suspicious that dakarian separated himself from the town during their conversation, and grouped himself with webadict. Like he forgot that he was supposed to be masquerading as a townie.

Fourthly, dakarian was certain that I was scum, so he voted for me, but during the course of the conversation, he changed his vote to Vector. He is definitely pliable to suggestion from webadict.

Finally, the timing of their exchange is suspect. I openly suspect that webadict and dakarian were working together, and then they have this staged exchange where webadict deliberately distances himself from dakarian.

And that was all from their most recent exchange. We can go farther back, to where I first accused webadict, and he stated that he would have killed dakarian in the night for his analytical responses. And then there was dakarian's accusation of webadict near the end of Day 1, where dakarian boldly stated that he wouldn't let webadict's mistakes slide, and dakarian certainly followed through with that.

Indeed, dakarian and webadict are both targeting the same people, dakarian rushes to attack webadict's accusers in webadict's defense, and they only give token suspicion towards each other. They are working together. They might've gotten away with it, but dakarian is giving themselves away.

[dakarian]

Sidenote: Anyone notice by now that I write these replies as I read them, instead of just reading the whole thing at once?  I do go back and change things but that's how it first comes out.

And now, to webadict.

I may be going for easy lynches, but so are you.  In fact, I'm the easiest lynch of the game.  I have played half a game of mafia, in person, and that was it.  Why do you think my posts sound so damnably confused?  I am confused.  I can't figure out what's going on, and I have people trying to kill me and defend me right, left, and center.  What we have here is the strongest player of the game attacking the weakest player, without taking into consideration that the learning curve of forum mafia is particularly steep.

Sadly enough, that can add to Web's suspicion.  Confusion is actually a Mafia tell.  The idea is that the Mafia would be too frightened to make any direct statements in case they are wrong, so they play 'confused'.  It's a similar mentality to why I fussed about Wishy Washyness.

Why are you not going for more difficult people?  ToonyMan, dakarian, and Free Beer are going to be far more challenging than myself, and you haven't even really nudged them.  You may say that is because they have done nothing suspicious, but a more experienced player is going to be dropping fewer clues.  Everyone in this game is spewing information.  Surely somewhere in all that mess you can see something, even if I'm entirely blind to it.

He answered that.  Toony's behavior makes him look scum even when he isn't.  If I remember it right, Web and his town was burned when they lynched Toony for the same issue in a past game.  I read through that game before playing here and I also thought Toony was scum till rollflip.

Sidenote: Apologies Toony.

Me.. he not only suspects me but WILL aim to kill me once he takes you down first. 

Free Beer.. he's flown under the radar.  NO ONE suspected him so far.  I tried to find something and can't find anything.  Web's probably in the same position.  You seem to be in it too.

Don't assume doctors, because they might not exist.  You might certainly die, because you're a pain in the neck to deal with and kind of scary with your tendency to "instructive insults."  Though you are saying dakarian is the most logical choice due to his analytical posts, that doesn't really make sense.  You already stated that you were prone to walls of text as well, but other people don't like them.  This means that you are capable of the same analytical spewage as dakarian, but you are hiding it from everyone with this flimsy excuse of PR.  However, it is evident that you don't care that much about what other people think of you, given your predilection for personal attacks on other people.  Your excuse is gone, and you're simply hiding behind a purported care for others' sentiments.

If I'm getting it right, you're basically saying that Web should've died last night, being the biggest threat.  Web used me as an excuse, but that's not really enough to prove it. 

Another person said it best: Blood was a 'safe kill'.  He had no enemies, no threats.  Web had threatened you.  Killing Web would mark you scum.  If you aren't mafia, the real one wanted you and him to debate it.  If you are mafia, you'd rather not bring attention to yourself.

I'll admit, though, it does give suspicion that Web's still alive, even after all I said.

I was not the one who said everyone who lynched Org was suspicious and that there was no reason to.  Do not conflate me with ToonyMan.  I have even explicitly said that I trust dakarian--so again, we have the situation where you are either lying or can't remember what was said two pages ago.  Given your memory of other events, I am forced to think that you are lying.

Similar to what I hit Jim with just earlier.  Note that I got burned by that by Eduren who, I believe now, was more of a slip up than a lie.  Nice catch either way.

This is the most half-assed "going for eduren" I can imagine, in fact.  I said this explicitly: "I am voting for eduren while I get myself combobulated."  Currently, I am gunning for you.  I am certain you can see the difference.

Next, you have a tendency to ignore people's questions.  You don't get called on it, because you're Fortress Webadict, the Man of Crazy Tells.  Well, perhaps you should answer them.  There are several instances of this, and I don't see why you should be exempt from answering others' queries when everyone else is constantly forced to step up to yours.

I'll need to back to find those questions

I will also submit here that ToonyMan is getting away with FoS'ing four people simultaneously, where you are blaming me for voting one and FoS'ing another.  Interesting--so the behavior is fine in Toony, but not in me?  Furthermore, now you're accusing three people of being scum: myself, Jim Groovester, and dakarian.  Would you mind picking and choosing some, rather than randomly flailing all over the place?

He answered that.  Vector and me are scum to him.  Jim's odd but town.


The rest was mostly a matter of defense, and this isn't about your defense at the moment, but your offense on Web.  Most of it is useful, but not deadly, except the talk of questions.  For that, I'll have to go diving. 

[dakarian]

Jim.  Vector's post inavertedly made me think of something.  I wrote about it two replies ago.  Be sure to read it.

You're still bent.. BENT on defending Vector and going after me.  I still have the small bits of doubt but if I have to gamble I will.  So..let's gamble.


Jim, if you're SURE me and web are scum.. make the bet with your life.  Vote me.  If anyone else even has a feeling that Jim might be correct, join him.  Lynch me.

WHEN I flip town, you die, Jim. 

Right now, I'm still pointing the second finger on Vector.  I need to go back on his posts though.  He swears Web ignored his questions. I'm giving him THAT much.  If I see enough.. perhaps.. PERHAPS, I'll turn to Web instead.  Don't bother arguing for Web's death, though.  It doesn't matter WHAT happens now.  You Will Be Lynched. I'll listen to Vector, Web, and all of the spectators watching for the rest of this day over whether Web or Vector are scum.  It'll take a LOT to make me turn away from Vector.. but I will listen.

But the game goes only two ways.  If you trust me, go after Vector today unless I say otherwise.  If you don't trust me completely, Lynch me today, then lynch who I tell you to lynch tomorrow and the day after. 


So Jim.  Willing to take that bet?  Remember.. Townies are bold and willing to die for their cause.  Mafias bluff and fold when the chips come down.  My soul is prepared.  How's yours?

[dakarian]

To say it plain so people don't play dumb.

Everyone!

I'm going to do a final test on Vector's claim.  Until then, do THIS.

If you trust me, Vote Vector today and Jim tomorrow.

If you DON'T trust me, Lynch ME.  When I turn Town, Kill Jim THEN Vector. 


NO ONE ELSE!   Kill me or Vector.  Don't worry about looking scum for killing me: I TOLD you to do it and it would confirm EVERYTHING I say.  For the good of the town, choose ME or him.

[Eduren]

For now, Im convinced. Vector

[dakarian]

Don't let a doubt slip in.  If you doubt me at all, or if you even question that Vector is town, I'd rather you kill me now, while there's time, than kill me later in Lynch or Lose. 

I don't even want the "Well, he bluffed that KNOWING that people would trust him" argument.  You fling that, you are scum.  Simply put.  If you think you'll say that, Vote me.

There's the smallest chance Vector is town: the reason why I'm going over his questioning of Webadict.  Wishy washy?  #&$#)% yah it is.  I can lay my cards down now.  It might be Jim and Webadict, with Jim pinning Vector and Web playing smart.  If Vector DOES turn town, and you turn on me THEN, we'll lose.  If you think that has a CHANCE of happening, Vote me.

If you're using Vector to prove whether me and web are innocent, use me instead.  Vote me. 

Jim.  Doesn't matter what you do.  You'll die either way.

Vector, either declare to all that I am confirmed as a Townie in your eyes, or kill me while proving Web's guilt. Your only chance to survive if you're town is to convince me, then kill me or join me. 

Toony, you sound like you're flexing.. you might as well vote for me.  Again, I TOLD you to do it, so don't let people pin you scum for lynching me. 


This isn't a bluff or a "Prove I'm town by being an insane Kook".  I'm the &#*($ Ghost of this game now!  Either side, 100% with me or kill me then follow my words.  The only way you'll lose is if I'm wrong.

..which is why I'm trembling now.  Oh well.

So.. am I your confirmed townie, or am I your ghost?

[Free Beer]

To say it plain so people don't play dumb.

Everyone!

I'm going to do a final test on Vector's claim.  Until then, do THIS.

If you trust me, Vote Vector today and Jim tomorrow.

If you DON'T trust me, Lynch ME.  When I turn Town, Kill Jim THEN Vector. 


NO ONE ELSE!   Kill me or Vector.  Don't worry about looking scum for killing me: I TOLD you to do it and it would confirm EVERYTHING I say.  For the good of the town, choose ME or him.

Your plan hinges on the fact that Jim is scum and you are town. Vector/anyone but Jim or you and we've lost.

If you truly are town, your plan will only succeed in forcing us into a "lynch or lose" situation. We would be better off voting Jim now instead.

I'm not buying into your plan, not because I doubt you, but because your plan is just plain stupid.

I'm ready to announce my final vote, but will wait for Vector's reply to my last questions.

[dakarian]

Yes.. more posts.  Completing my search on Webadict.

Web, first off.. you might as well vote for me.  You're after me, you want me dead.  You're sure I'm scum. I know you're more stubborn and if you hold back now you'll STILL be suspicious of me.  Let's not play games.  Just lynch me.

Then it becomes a matter of making sure you don't die with me.

I looked back.. you HAVE been rather nonanswering of questions.  You ask.. a lot of questions, but don't answer them well.  Time for you to answer some.


1. Why have you been after Vector since Day 1?  You keep saying "he'll prove it".  I didn't like it.  I DON'T like it.  It's time you end it.  Please answer that question.

No.. don't JUST use Day 2's evidence.  That's useful, but you accused him on day 1.  No, don't say "I said it before".  If you did, quote the post.  I want it all NOW, from Day 1 to now, why you SWARE he's guilty.


2. To webadict: if I were scum, why would I kill BloodBeard?

In fact, let's just go all out.  For now, let's just pretend I'm NOT scum to you.  You can pick out any other person to be with Vector, except me.  You'll need this logic tomorrow anyway so just play along.

Now, please, tell me why BloodBeard would be killed.  In fact, as best you can, if Vector and someone else is scum, what are their plans.  Why are they doing what they doing in the day and why did they kill BloodBeard at night?



Please don't play the "I don't have to answer.. you're scum" line.  This post will be used as evidence tomorrow.  These are the questions you did NOT answer so far.  If you want Vector dead and not yourself, please answer them.  I gave Eduren, Jim, and Vector this chance.  Eduren proved himself.  Vector gave himself this shot via you.  Jim failed, miserably.  If you fail, you die.  If you defend yourself, Vector dies.

[dakarian]

@ Free Beer

Yes, this is insane, I know.  However much I'm afraid of a Lynch of Lose messing up, I'm MORE fearful of this:

Townie dies Day 2.  Mafia kills someone else.

Day 3, I'm lynched due to looking scummy.  I'm Town.. mafia wins.



I guess there is a third option.  I already declared Jim dead.  He'll die no matter what.  Why wait?  If he dies, I can still hunt for the last mafia, and still use this threat to confirm myself.  I mean, if you use KISS.. I'm debating over Vector or Web, but marked Jim for death.. so why am "I" not voting like that?

Very well.  UnVote  Vote Jim


And no.. I stopped being rational a few posts ago.  At least I'm not WoTing so much.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim, if you're SURE me and web are scum.. make the bet with your life.  Vote me.  If anyone else even has a feeling that Jim might be correct, join him.  Lynch me.

Ha ha, no. Would you be making this 'gamble' if there was even a snowball's chance of hell in you being lynched today? I doubt it. You claim to be desperate, but you're perfectly safe.

If you already had a few votes, then maybe this gamble might be credible, but right now you're just bluffing. Bluffing, bluffing, bluffing, bluffing, bluffing.

I think you're seriously overestimating the impact you have on our discussion, and this game.