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[Jim Groovester]

dakarian, I'm gathering from your post that anybody who could be convinced to vote for somebody could potentially be in league with each other. You voted for Org the last, so what does that say about you? Are you an accomplice to somebody? To Vector? To webadict? Or were you convinced to vote for him based on our claims against him? You didn't make the decision in a vacuum, that's for sure. So, what was it? Accomplice or evidence?

You're focusing on a potential connection between me and Vector today, because we both decided to vote for webadict. May I remind you that my suspicions for webadict began yesterday, way back when I suspected that he and eduren were working together, and my suspicions continue today. But I'm not the only one who suspected webadict. BloodBeard voiced his suspicions before he was killed yesterday, noting that webadict's claim of proof against Vector was odd, and Free Beer voiced his suspicions today, stating that he suspected webadict could be using his experience to throw all of us into chaos.

You also missed that ToonyMan voted for him. That's five people suspicious of webadict, at some level or another. Does voting on our suspicions somehow make us automatically in league?

Anyways, it's awfully interesting you don't find webadict suspicious in the least at all. And it is awfully interesting you decide to cast a net of suspicion over the people who most strongly suspect webadict. dakarian, you've earned an official finger of suspicion.

[Vector]

Random vote jim

Blorgh.  Sorry about that--I had no intention to vote for anyone.  I thought the red text could be used to get the attention of the person you were questioning.

In that case: Unvote.

That was not a random vote for Jim.  As previously stated, I had no intention of voting for him and did not in fact understand the practice of random voting.

Voted me (lurking).  Felt Eduren was "a fool"

Also defended an array of people and gave them second chances, in hopes of finding actual scum and not going off randomly.  You were one of those people.  If I'm scum, why would I give you a second chance?  You're clever.  Do you think that if Jim and I were working in concert, we'd go for BloodBeard instead of webadict or you, given that both of you are running circles around the rest of us and BloodBeard was hardly saying anything?

Besides, if you're going to call me for being insulting and thinking eduren is being stupid, I think you should look at other people's behavior.  Various people have called ToonyMan silly, and webadict has admitted to having a thing for insulting others.

1. I'm not trying to vote eduren yet, so there are no contestas right now.

2. dakarian is an unknown quality.  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but eduren seems like a fool.  I will probably end up voting for him when it actually comes to lynching, but right now I think it's more important to get dakarian out here and talking.

It's not that I think dakarian is dangerous.  It's that eduren seems not-that-dangerous, mostly silly.  My guess is that he's going to get lynched, which would be good; however, before the end of the first day, I would really like more information from people like dakarian and whatever other lurkers I've forgotten about.

Now, it can make sense to go after me since I hadn't spoken yet, but you seem a little wish wash on Eduren.  He's not dangerous, but he's going to be lynched. 

I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum.  Dangerous scum is scum that can hide perfectly within the town.  I thought of him more like pond scum, really.  You can see it there and you can decide what you're going to do with it, rather than needing to take care of it ASAP and kill it.  Besides, it might not even be scum, but something entirely different.  Does that make sense to you, or would you like me to explain my thinking process further?

As previously stated, I'm willing to give people time to change their tune.  The first day is about feeling people out.  I do that by attacking and backing away, though apparently my particular style gets me tagged "wishy-washy."  Why is it, then, that others are allowed to back off and send out general FoS's?

Also, to ToonyMan: if you are a townie, perhaps you should be more helpful.  Screwing around with eduren != helpful.  We already know he's scummish.  The fact that webadict and eduren want to lynch you doesn't mean they're scum, either.  It means they think you're scum.  Your logic is fallacious.

This has led me to be even more confused.  You know he's scummish, but the fact that he wants to lynch toony may not mean he's scum?  Do you think he's scum or do you not? 

I'm talking about mathematical logic here, not my emotions and suspicions.  Eduren behaved scummishly.  This does not mean he is scum.  Obviously, this was true of Org--so it also may apply to eduren.  Then, just because eduren wants Toony lynched very badly and Toony flips town does not mean that eduren is scum.  I took exception to Toony's absolute statements, where it sounded like he was using deductive logic to arrive at faulty conclusions.

If you think I was being pedantic and taking things too literally... why, yes I was.  I happen to like my logic clean and free of misuse.

Sidenote:  I also notice this:

So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?

Depends on wasted.  If you maintain a line against him for a few days and he ends up flipping scum, you'll probably be absolved (because it would be kind of weird for scum to bus scum on the first day).  If you maintain a line on him and he flips town, you are going to look pretty stupid/scummish.  The optimization is up to you.

Given that you were the first to go after Org and, although casted lots of suspicion on Eduren, ended up being the first vote for Org during the final casting.  By your own judgement, you don't look well.

As you noticed, I wasn't the first vote on Org.  I was also thinking in terms of the "lone holdout, who slowly gathers evidence on the same man for several days and then triumphantly leads a lynch on him" in my statement to eduren.

Additionally, It seems kind of odd that some people are complaining because I was too tough on Org and some are complaining because I was too wishy-washy, and both groups think I'm scum.  Would you guys mind picking a story and sticking with it?

The same thing goes for my many suspected accomplices.  If I were scum, you'd think I wouldn't be working with some five people in concert simultaneously.  As far as I know, the town teams up and scum try to spread chaos among them.

Now that Org died:

2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former.  The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own.  Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation.  I can't fully say that he's suspicious.  He looks and smells town.  However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.

But you voted before Web.  If Web is guilty of pushing for Org's death, what does it show of you who spearheaded the vote?

I said "Maybe Org is scum.  He looks more scummy than eduren.  Let us lynch him and find out."

Webadict said "Org is scum!  Vector is scum!  Both of them must prove they are town right this instant or die!"

I consider the latter pushing and the former non-pushing, mostly by looking at the level of violence/aggression in each.  You may take that as you will.

So.. Jim was the first to vote for org, though pulls away to OMGUS Blood (don't read too much there, it ended quickly), and later goes for Org again.  Vector eventually votes for Org as well, no matter how 'scummy' eduren looks.  Jim defends Vector against Web, then pushes to end the vote.

Now that the day is over, Web was 'pushing the vote for org' and Eduren is suspect, but STILL not voted on, and the two are STILL in sync.

I keep on saying this, and it seems that no one is actually listening or reading my posts.  If eduren's scum value was a 5, then Org was a 6.  I considered Org's connections more valuable than eduren's.  Let's say that Org's connections were worth two points and eduren's were worth .5.  Then you take the larger to-lynch value--that is, 6 + 2 > 5 + .5--and I went for Org.  How difficult is this to understand?  There isn't any kind of ulterior motive here.  I plugged in the data and took what seemed to be the logical choice.  Dakarian, if you look at my posts this should be evident.  I didn't do it with numbers before, but the statements line up with time.

Also, I think it's odd that people are trying to kill me for making informed decisions and changing my mind.  The logic was outlined at all steps of the process, and should have been perfectly clear.


Blargh.  I'd ask someone a question, but I'm pretty tired.

[dakarian]

dakarian, I'm gathering from your post that anybody who could be convinced to vote for somebody could potentially be in league with each other. You voted for Org the last, so what does that say about you? Are you an accomplice to somebody? To Vector? To webadict? Or were you convinced to vote for him based on our claims against him? You didn't make the decision in a vacuum, that's for sure. So, what was it? Accomplice or evidence?

Deja vu:

Unvote, then. I guess that explains the inactivity during the day.

back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?

Answer the question Jim! If that is your real name...

I'm trying to gather information and trying to make an informed decision about who to lynch on the first day.

That's my story, BloodBeard. What's yours?

Throwing the accusation back only works when you ANSWER IT FIRST.  Failing to answer is similar to OMGUS voting without the vote trail. 

To answer your question, it has been said that EVERYONE that voted for Org is suspect: Me, Web, You, and Vector.  As such, it makes sense to be wary of me.  One problem.. I provided posted evidence and analysis of why I linked you and Vector.  Were's YOUR evidence of me and..who ARE you linking me with?  EVERYONE?  That's rather vague.

You're focusing on a potential connection between me and Vector today, because we both decided to vote for webadict. May I remind you that my suspicions for webadict began yesterday, way back when I suspected that he and eduren were working together, and my suspicions continue today. But I'm not the only one who suspected webadict. BloodBeard voiced his suspicions before he was killed yesterday, noting that webadict's claim of proof against Vector was odd, and Free Beer voiced his suspicions today, stating that he suspected webadict could be using his experience to throw all of us into chaos.

Not the whole story.  If it was just you and vector vs web, I wouldn't have went after you.  It was only when I saw that you two did the SAME THING to Org's lynch and then tried to link Web to it based on his experience.  That, along with your heavy defense of Vector and quick finishing off of Org is why I wrote what I wrote.

So, explain why both you and Vector were the first to push Org's lynch and the ones to push finishing him off and yet are NOT suspect?

You also missed that ToonyMan voted for him. That's five people suspicious of webadict, at some level or another. Does voting on our suspicions somehow make us automatically in league?

We've been over ToonyMan before, though.  He's a Jester without actually recieving the role .  That's why the bandwagon on him died.  Also note, he didn't vote for Org.  You two are voting for web and Org.

In fact, 3/4ths through your post and you have NOT mentioned any defense on what you did to Org.  Funny, since that's the majority of my argument.   

Anyways, it's awfully interesting you don't find webadict suspicious in the least at all. And it is awfully interesting you decide to cast a net of suspicion over the people who most strongly suspect webadict. dakarian, you've earned an official finger of suspicion.

End of the post.  Make note everyone:

My accusation post of you and vector was on how both you and vector started, ended, and heavily aimed to kill off Org, even when you had other ideas and even when others stepped up.  I only finished off by talking about how you are trying to link the mess to webadict, and I don't NEED that to pin you two together.  Meanwhile your reply tries NOT to accuse me for being scum, but tries to throw random information in my face OMGUS style, and a bit of random pointing at others over Web. 

That's NOT good enough.  I WoTed Eduren with a threat of LynchAllLiers.  Did he try the "I know you are but what am I?" argument?  No.  He ANSWERED my threats with reasons and explanations.  He spilled his guts and told what he could of himself.  I dropped suspicions afterwards.  I did the same to Web and he replied explaining likewise..not the BEST explanation but it was something.  I left FoS on him but dropped vote.


I do the same to you and expect explanations, reasoned arguments, and a reason for me to turn from you two and aim at web and perhaps Toony again. 


Summary for everyone else:

Jim votes Org first over silence, then keeps the vote when Org talks "because he's useless".  He then drops the vote only to go after Blood via OMGUS, then me for MY silence.  After I talk, he goes after Org again.

Vector votes Org over lurkiness after voting for me due to Silence.  He was the second vote.


Web threatens Vector and Jim goes heavy to defend Vector against Web's threat.  When Vector is no longer at risk Jim declares we end voting and lynch Org. 


Day 2 comes and now Jim and Vector vote for Web, with a threat that he's masterminding the situation that led to the Org vote.

I'm a reasonable person.  I'll listen to evidence why I'm wrong and own up to it.  Guys, if you have a reason to believe that what I'm writing is wrong, even if it's 'gut instinct' then write up.  However, if it sounds like what I'm writing is right then Vote Jim (forgot to color it last time) and let's end this nightmare. 

Meanwhile Vector, I see your reply.. give me a second while I read it.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: dakarian
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Vector

[dakarian]

That was not a random vote for Jim.  As previously stated, I had no intention of voting for him and did not in fact understand the practice of random voting.

I believe you're right (without looking at the thread.  I do remember something about that). 

Also defended an array of people and gave them second chances, in hopes of finding actual scum and not going off randomly.  You were one of those people.  If I'm scum, why would I give you a second chance?  You're clever.  Do you think that if Jim and I were working in concert, we'd go for BloodBeard instead of webadict or you, given that both of you are running circles around the rest of us and BloodBeard was hardly saying anything?

Unless I missed some posts, the only person you second chanced was me once I finally came here.  Untill then, you were accusing me of lurking...

Wait a second:

The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (3) - Jim Groovester, Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (2) - dakarian, ToonyMan

YOU TWO AGAIN!!!  BOTH of you.  DON'T bring up Bloodbeard: he voted but said I was innocent and wasn't there.  You two were saying I was lurking.

So you two both voted for me thinking I was lurking, and when I stopped, you both dropped me afterwards and lynched org.  Now you're both voting for web. 

Besides, if you're going to call me for being insulting and thinking eduren is being stupid, I think you should look at other people's behavior.  Various people have called ToonyMan silly, and webadict has admitted to having a thing for insulting others.

That was just a note of why you didn't vote for Eduren.  It wasn't saying that it was scummy behavior.  Basically keeping track of the whys.. not just the votes.  Note that the argument was more about how you kept wishy washying Eduren's scummyness/unscummyness

I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum.  Dangerous scum is scum that can hide perfectly within the town.  I thought of him more like pond scum, really.  You can see it there and you can decide what you're going to do with it, rather than needing to take care of it ASAP and kill it.  Besides, it might not even be scum, but something entirely different.  Does that make sense to you, or would you like me to explain my thinking process further?

As previously stated, I'm willing to give people time to change their tune.  The first day is about feeling people out.  I do that by attacking and backing away, though apparently my particular style gets me tagged "wishy-washy."  Why is it, then, that others are allowed to back off and send out general FoS's?

Because most threaten, let the other defend themselves, then pull back.  Again, I point to Eduren.  Blah, I point to you right now.  I threaten you, you defend, and if the defense works then I pull back. 

You threatened and pulled back in the same post.  That's not a true threat on Eduren.  It's especially not when you leave your vote OFF him.

Contrast, I accuse you, I VOTE for you causing you to reply.  THAT is accusation.  If I pull my vote now, it'll because you've proven yourself to me and showed evidence.

In fact, why did "I" have to prove myself by posting before getting the vote off me while someone you truely felt was scum gets off with just a FoS?  Once I proved myself, the vote should've went to Eduren, especially since Eduren's threats were fading away and Org wasn't exactly hiding well.

I'm talking about mathematical logic here, not my emotions and suspicions.  Eduren behaved scummishly.  This does not mean he is scum.  Obviously, this was true of Org--so it also may apply to eduren.  Then, just because eduren wants Toony lynched very badly and Toony flips town does not mean that eduren is scum.  I took exception to Toony's absolute statements, where it sounded like he was using deductive logic to arrive at faulty conclusions.

If you think I was being pedantic and taking things too literally... why, yes I was.  I happen to like my logic clean and free of misuse.

But it sounds too jumpy, not just literal.  You accuse at the same time that you defend.  Now if we add in what you just said now, you actually believed that he WAS scum and was just after the second one...so WHY defend him?  Why not just say "He's scum, but not dangerous?"  Why sound like you have doubts if, as you say now, you were sure?

If you weren't sure, why tell me now that: "I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum.  "  That sounds definite while your posts sound wishy washy.  If you had said "I thought he could be scum but wasn't sure" it would make sense.. you say you felt he WAS... yet still wish washed.

Note, second chance =! wish wash.  I'm GIVING you your second chance now and I voted to KILL YOU.  I give you that chance but I show just how much I believe you're scum.

Passiveness is a mafia tell.

As you noticed, I wasn't the first vote on Org.  I was also thinking in terms of the "lone holdout, who slowly gathers evidence on the same man for several days and then triumphantly leads a lynch on him" in my statement to eduren.

It actually tends to be the reverse then: fast accusation + town lynch = scum.  Slow push + lots of evidence + town lynch = bold but mistaken townie.

But we're talking game theory .  Your point is that you were thinking of a certain way and I can see that.

Additionally, It seems kind of odd that some people are complaining because I was too tough on Org and some are complaining because I was too wishy-washy, and both groups think I'm scum.  Would you guys mind picking a story and sticking with it?

My story:  You worked with Vector to remove Org and the wishywashy with Eduren + voting on me is being used for cover now (you might've meant to kill me off until I WoTed, which removed the chance of saying I'm not helpful).  Eduren threatened you and jim defended you so you couldn't kill him.  I didn't even LOOK at either of you and went after Eduren and Web so I was safe but too big to kill.  Blood was an easy target..just like the 'silent ones' were.

Ignore the other stories.

The same thing goes for my many suspected accomplices.  If I were scum, you'd think I wouldn't be working with some five people in concert simultaneously.  As far as I know, the town teams up and scum try to spread chaos among them.

Note that 'grouping' is a scum tell, NOT a townie tell.  Townsfolk try to work together like sheep..going their own way while trying to go in the same direction.  A traditional scum tell is more like fish: in lock step with each other, with small bits of 'infighting' perhaps to throw off the trail. 

I said "Maybe Org is scum.  He looks more scummy than eduren.  Let us lynch him and find out."

Webadict said "Org is scum!  Vector is scum!  Both of them must prove they are town right this instant or die!"

I consider the latter pushing and the former non-pushing, mostly by looking at the level of violence/aggression in each.  You may take that as you will.

By the time Webadict made the threat, Org already had two votes against him.  Note that my vote came AFTER Jim's call to lynch Org so I was more propelled by Jim than Web.  All Web really did was put attention towards you by linking you with Org.  Then Jim defended you until you were safe (note that I was less about defending you and more about telling Web that he wasn't using good reasoning AND getting derailed.  He could've dropped Org's vote, aimed it at you and I would've pulled back to watch).

So again, you two started the bandwagon (two man bandwagon, BIG scum tell), one of you defended the other, then pushed to finish the lynch.  Web SOUNDED more agressive, but it was you two that got Org killed.  Nonagressive, but destructive.  Perfect Mafia activity. 

I mean, jeesh, I had to spend HOURS over the posts of Day 1 just to see how you two were connected with Org's kill.  The way you two sound, Web did it all with the entire town in toe.

I keep on saying this, and it seems that no one is actually listening or reading my posts.  If eduren's scum value was a 5, then Org was a 6.  I considered Org's connections more valuable than eduren's.  Let's say that Org's connections were worth two points and eduren's were worth .5.  Then you take the larger to-lynch value--that is, 6 + 2 > 5 + .5--and I went for Org.  How difficult is this to understand?  There isn't any kind of ulterior motive here.  I plugged in the data and took what seemed to be the logical choice.  Dakarian, if you look at my posts this should be evident.  I didn't do it with numbers before, but the statements line up with time.


Also, I think it's odd that people are trying to kill me for making informed decisions and changing my mind.  The logic was outlined at all steps of the process, and should have been perfectly clear.


Blargh.  I'd ask someone a question, but I'm pretty tired.

That MIGHT be why I voted for Jim instead of you first. 


Well, to everyone:

Jim is clearly scumm.. I'm sure.. dead sure now.  Vector has decent reasons and the biggest reason why I suspect him is because him and Jim were so lock step.  Vector, you're still my top suspect, but I'm willing to read more and see if I can find more reasons to doubt.  It's clear, though, the one beside you must die. 

Thus, definatly vote Jim.  Vector, you stated reasons why you aren't scum. Unless you have great reasons why JIM isn't scum, I'd advise you join us.  Tomarrow, we'll talk more.

[webadict]

I disagree. I still believe Vector is more scummy over Jim. Sure, Jim Groovester is suspicious, but I would rather lynch Vector.

I think having similar voting records isn't enough to pin them together. I think that one is merely following the other. Which one do you believe is doing the following?

I'm pretty sure Vector has, each time. I say that following is MORE of a scumtell than the straight-out accusing that Jim did. Sure, I think he's wrong, but that's a bold mafia member that would do that. I'm not saying it's impossible, merely improbable.

I dislike the way Jim jumps to Vector's rescue though. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Can this man not defend himself? However, it's less likely that scum jump to someone's rescue, as that would bring attention to themselves, as you've proven. That's why I am sure Vector is more likely scum. He's following and cautious.

[dakarian]

I understand, but that's assuming they would be too tricky to make that mistake.

I believe they DID make that mistake.  I believe they didn't mean to work together, but both decided to go lurk hunting to cover themselves.  Since ANY lurk hunter would start on me then turn on Org, it became natural for them to follow suit.  The town turned away from that since townies tend to get affected by group think, and the 'group' was focused on Toony, either for or against him.  Note they kept lurk hunting all through Day 1. 

To be exact, though, it's Jim that made the mistake of grouping tendency when he started and ended the push for Org, defended Vector against you, then led the charge against you afterwards.  He's bold and ready to accuse, as you can tell by his reply to me: the only one that attempted to attack my credibility rather than defend his case.  Org looked scum.. scum enough to make it seem like a mistake, especially since the 'Big talkers' were a part of it.  I think Jim got too eager in killing him and hoping to hide behind us while making sure Vector wasn't noticed at all.

Sidenote: you ARE the only one that really pushed for Vector's death.  Otherwise, we would've forgotten they were there. 

I'll put it another way: you believe Vector's guilty, and I can't and wont' defend him.  I belive Jim is guilty.  Can you really stand up and defend him and, very important, find someone else that's a better scum?

[webadict]

No, I can't honestly think of a better lynch than either Vector OR Jim Groovester, if those were our only choices. Well, except maybe you, but that's a whole 'nother matter.

And I figured that I'd at least come up with sensible reasons why Vector should be lynched over Jim, but these are my opinions. These opinions are based on the facts that if we lynch Jim Groovester today, it may turn out he's town, in which case people may forget Vector, the mafia. If Jim turns out to be town, then I can only think that the scum team is Vector and dakarian, or in some very small chance ToonyMan and Vector.

The reason I want Vector gone is because, though he may be certainly the least dangerous scum, I am certain he is scum, as opposed to the others.

[dakarian]

We're just about in a flip exactly then.  Except you seem less sure about Jim than I am about Vector. 

And I just noticed something deeper: It's Mislynch and lose.  It's 4 vs 2 now.  If the next person that dies is town, after night kill it's 2 v 2: game over. 

If we had time, I might've been content to go after Vector now to get things going fast then end it with jim.  I can't be content with that.  I KNOW Jim's wrong and, to apologize for the "assume I'm town" bit but, since the only person you really believe is mafia over Jim is me, I can be content in believing that there's no one else BUT Jim.  The problem is simple: do you honestly believe I could be mafia over Jim, who's defended the person you sware is mafia from step 1? 

You did do a few mistakes, but to assume Jim isn't mafia is to look at you as mafia, and I'm not willing to bet the game on you bussing Vector.  As for proof of me... all I needed to do was join the bandwagon now and wipe you out in a lynch to win: Jim wants you dead, Vector would side with Jim over you, Toony probably wouldn't change since I helped save his life, and that's 4 to lynch.  Instead I defended and struck at your accusers.  If that's not enough proof, what is?

So I choose to see you as town since I believe Jim is THAT guilty.  There's not much choice for you BUT to see me as town, no matter who else is scum. 

I'm willing to risk the entire game on Jim's death.  If you go with me and Jim flips town, it's over.  I know that.  I WILL risk it.  Are you sure enough to bet the ENTIRE game on Vector and Toonyman? 

As to why side with me over me side with you?  There's NO chance of me being mafia now.  I'm confirmed.  If Free posts but doesn't vote, he's confirmed too.  You have both scum on your vote list and, from your view, it's Vector and Jim or Vector and Toonyman.  To me, you havn't QUITE been confirmed yet so there's a shadow of a sliver of a chance.

Thus I stay with Jim.  You can either find a way to confirm yourself or find some evidence that proves Toonyman's guilt.  Meanwhile, TOONYMAN PLEASE UNVOTE NOW!

[webadict]

You're wrong. There's 7 people alive...

It's not mislynch or lose.

And yes. I've seen plenty of crazy things in mafia games. It's possible. I'm not assuming he's not mafia. I'm just assuming you ARE. And as that involves lynching Jim and not Vector, because Vector is your partner, then that's a possibility.

And just because you defend me doesn't mean you're town. The very face can be explained with Jim. Just because he protects scum doesn't mean he's scum.

And you agree that Vector should be lynched, because he's always the teammate. Therefore, I'm going for the obvious scum than the maybe scum.

[dakarian]

You're wrong. There's 7 people alive...

It's not mislynch or lose.

1    * Jim Groovester
 2   * dakarian
 3   * ToonyMan
 4   * eduren
 5   * Vector
 6   * Free Beer
 7   * webadict

Of course, that requires us having 8 or so people who'd like to play who don't have much experience with Mafias yet.

MOTHER#@($#@%*  I thought there was 8 at start, and I forgot about Eduren!!!

Well, that changes things.  Vector can go.  Then all I need to do is prove that I'm less scummy than Jim. 

Unvote.  Vote Vector

We'll settle this tomarrow then, once either the two on the sidelines/afk votes with us or else Toony gets off of you.

[Jim Groovester]

dakarian, your post is full of inaccuracies, and you didn't really answer my questions to you. Instead, deflections, webadict style.

Deja vu:

Unvote, then. I guess that explains the inactivity during the day.
[BloodBeard and my quote edited out]

Throwing the accusation back only works when you ANSWER IT FIRST.  Failing to answer is similar to OMGUS voting without the vote trail. 

You're going way back to the beginning of Day 1? That was before you had even talked at all. You were still a complete unknown, and I wanted to hear what you had to say, and I wasn't the only one. Then, when you spoke, I backed off because I was satisfied by your explanation.

And then, you come on here today, and begin linking people together because of that? Let's examine your post:

Wait a second:

The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (3) - Jim Groovester, Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (2) - dakarian, ToonyMan

YOU TWO AGAIN!!!  BOTH of you.  DON'T bring up Bloodbeard: he voted but said I was innocent and wasn't there.  You two were saying I was lurking.

Is that BloodBeard I see in there, voting for you as well? If you're going to link everybody who ever voted for you together as scum, I couldn't think of better company to keep than our confirmed innocent townie, BloodBeard.

And why not bring up BloodBeard? Our actions in regard to our early vote against you were identical. You spoke, and all the votes disappeared in their entirety, did they not? So why is BloodBeard innocent here, but Vector and me are not?

In fact, 3/4ths through your post and you have NOT mentioned any defense on what you did to Org.  Funny, since that's the majority of my argument.

I voted Org initially to get him to talk, much in the same way I voted against you. Org proved to be defiant and unhelpful, even deliberately so. Frustrated by his continued refusals, I let my vote against him stand. Later in the day, webadict delivered Org's famous tell, and then Org being the mafia became certain in my eye. That's why I voted Org.

I can't defend my reason to vote for Org further than what I stated when I cast my vote.

Not the whole story.  If it was just you and vector vs web, I wouldn't have went after you.  It was only when I saw that you two did the SAME THING to Org's lynch and then tried to link Web to it based on his experience.  That, along with your heavy defense of Vector and quick finishing off of Org is why I wrote what I wrote.

So, explain why both you and Vector were the first to push Org's lynch and the ones to push finishing him off and yet are NOT suspect?

First things first, I'm not the one who suggested that webadict was the one who sealed Org's lynching by leveraging webadict's greater experience, that was Free Beer. I'm flattered that you would attribute this to me, but you are mistaken on that point.

Second, I didn't finish off Org. It wasn't Vector either. Take a look at the record. The votes on Org proceeded with me being the first, Vector second, webadict third, and you fourth. webadict's vote pushed Org's lynching into majority, and it was your vote that sealed his fate. So I didn't finish off Org, it was you and webadict that did.

So why did you and webadict decide to cast your votes against Org? You answered my question towards you with this:

To answer your question, it has been said that EVERYONE that voted for Org is suspect: Me, Web, You, and Vector.  As such, it makes sense to be wary of me.  One problem.. I provided posted evidence and analysis of why I linked you and Vector.  Were's YOUR evidence of me and..who ARE you linking me with?  EVERYONE?  That's rather vague.

That's hardly an answer at all. I asked you a direct question about your motivations to lynch Org, and instead, you respond with some vague statement about everyone's guilt in lynching Org. A simple, "I voted to lynch Org because he seemed to be the most guilty at the time," would have been a good answer. Instead, you beat around the bush. I mean, you could've stuck to your original reasoning you made when you voted for Org, but you didn't.

That's pretty suspicious.

End of the post.  Make note everyone:

My accusation post of you and vector was on how both you and vector started, ended, and heavily aimed to kill off Org, even when you had other ideas and even when others stepped up.  I only finished off by talking about how you are trying to link the mess to webadict, and I don't NEED that to pin you two together.  Meanwhile your reply tries NOT to accuse me for being scum, but tries to throw random information in my face OMGUS style, and a bit of random pointing at others over Web.

Other ideas? What other ideas? I listed my suspicions several times. Should I have acted on those other suspicions instead of my suspicions on Org? This flat out doesn't make any sense. I should be flailing about and accusing other people with no evidence, going solely off of my suspicions, instead of focusing in on the target that was acting most suspiciously? But why?

As I said above, the suggestion that webadict was involved in Org's death as a mastermind was Free Beer's idea. I highlighted it in my accusation towards webadict, but that was not my primary evidence.

And about me not accusing you: I can only formally accuse one person at a time. You and webadict are working together, that I'm certain of, but I voted webadict first, and I am not letting go. The random information you speak of isn't random. They were suggestions, that's for sure, based on your behavior when you accused me. But with the way you're coming after me now, it's quickly becoming certainty.

That's NOT good enough.  I WoTed Eduren with a threat of LynchAllLiers.  Did he try the "I know you are but what am I?" argument?  No.  He ANSWERED my threats with reasons and explanations.  He spilled his guts and told what he could of himself.  I dropped suspicions afterwards.  I did the same to Web and he replied explaining likewise..not the BEST explanation but it was something.  I left FoS on him but dropped vote.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about because I don't know any mafia jargon and I don't hide behind it like you.

I see you left a little room for suspicion for webadict. Don't want it to be too obvious the two of you are working together.

I do the same to you and expect explanations, reasoned arguments, and a reason for me to turn from you two and aim at web and perhaps Toony again.

ToonyMan?? Why would I want to convince you to go after ToonyMan? I defended the guy yesterday! Why would you mention some other target that you want to be convinced to go after, and a target I defended, no less? Goodness gracious, why don't you get a brand labeled "AIFAM" and stamp it on your forehead. This is an enormous tell, and a foolish and careless one, too.

Summary for everyone else:

Yes, a summary, so that everyone will ignore what you've said and instead focus on your conclusions that aren't even accurate anyway.

[ToonyMan]

...

Either dakarian and webadict are a really good scum team or Jim and Vector are scum.

Unvote.

Vote Vector.

If Vector comes up...

Scum, then we know who the other scum is and will most likely win.

Town, then webadict and dakarian are the scum and we're screwed.

[ToonyMan]

I still don't trust webadict.  He's alive Day 2.

[Jim Groovester]

Unvote.

Vote Vector.

Well, that puts four votes for Vector, which is an unbeatable majority with the seven of us.

ToonyMan, it's exactly as you describe, but the situation is exactly the same if webadict gets lynched as it is if Vector gets lynched. If he's scum, we know who the scum is. If he's town, we still know who the scum is, but the town is in a worse position.

If you don't trust webadict, why did you change your vote from him to Vector? That's a gamble that works in favor of the guy you don't trust.