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[Free Beer]

At long last, some answers to your queries.

1. I spent most of yesterday hunting lurkers because they're either worthless or dangerous.  Either they're sitting around without stating any of their suspicions whatsoever (thus hurting the town's efforts to identify scum), or they're scum sitting back and watching us try to murder each other.  Neither case is good.  So, I tried to get them to prove their allegiances.

2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former.  The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own.  Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation.  I can't fully say that he's suspicious.  He looks and smells town.  However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.

As far as eduren goes, my reasoning stands from yesterday--that is, lack of helpfulness, bandwagoning, etc.  It also helps that BloodBeard was strongly suspicious of him and he fell for ToonyMan's scum-trap.  I also feel like I'm waiting for him to show some better reasons as to why he should live, if no one else starts emanating scum tells.

I'll admit, though, that I don't really know what to think at the moment.  I'm quite confused and hoping that today's progressions will clear a lot up.

3. eduren: Less conspicuous like whom?  In other words, can you think of someone less conspicuous than BloodBeard?

So why did you keep your vote on Org? After he began posting in his defense, was he still either worthless or dangerous? As you indicate, you've been suspicious of eduren for a while now. Why didn't you vote for him instead?

If you think eduren is scum, who do you think is the other scum? Do you think a webadict/eduren pairing is the most likely, or are you suspicious of others?

You didn't mention ToonyMan, and in fact used his "scum-trap" in part of your reasoning. Does this mean that you think he is town? If so, why?

You used the fact that BloodBeard suspected eduren as part of your reasoning. What motives do you think the mafia had in going after him?

Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?

I think at least one of the people who voted Org is scum. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in how lightly you, webadict, touched upon Jim and Vector on the previous day. If you kept the pressure up, particularly against Jim, I wouldn't feel the desire to question them today.

I suspect you, webadict, the most, because your vote for Org tied the vote. dakarian changed over to Org later, but you had no way of knowing that. Why did you tie the vote? It could have been to save eduren, or it could have been to give the mafia a head start with their kills. I can think of no other reason. I also think your reasoning for voting for Org was shoddy: you claim that he was not giving his characteristic tell, and that's it. Even if he wasn't giving the tell, given the length of time between that game and this game, it is quite plausible that Org had a chance to refine his playstyle.

[Vector]

Argh, guests just arrived.  I will answer you later...

[webadict]

I can't get over something.

webadict has gone after Vector since yesterday. It was unprovoked, and he failed to provide any compelling evidence yesterday, citing instead that he will have proof today. This trend continues today, deferring my questions instead to Vector's response, and again failing to provide any compelling evidence. Vector has yet to flinch against webadict, and is only rousing suspicion for webadict himself.

Furthermore, there's this:

Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.

This made me think that webadict was going to do something in the night that would prove that Vector was scum, namely, investigate Vector as the cop. Quite frankly, I'm surprised webadict is still alive after giving such a tell like this. I would think the mafia would've seized up on something like that.

The above, combined with the way webadict is going after Vector, lead me to believe that webadict is scum.

Unvote eduren. I haven't decided on him yet. webadict, however, is  too dangerous to keep in this game.

I'm scum because I'm going after Vector?

Perhaps you're not thinking clearly:
Why would I die this past night? Wouldn't I be the likely choice for Doctor protection? If anything, I would kill dakarian for his analytical posts. He wouldn't have doctor protection and there'd be no reason for him to have it unless I was doctor.

You're saying I'm mafia because I lack evidence for someone being mafia? Isn't that itself lacking real evidence?

There's evidence galore. He's going for the easy lynch. Second on the bandwagons. He says that everyone that lynched Org is suspicious and there was no reason to, despite the fact he did, and then he went for eduren!

I have to go for a bit, but I'll be back with more!

[Jim Groovester]

Warning: Enormous Wall of Text

Alright, webadict, let me be thorough, just for you.

You began your accusation of Vector with this:

I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.

This came out of nowhere. I was thoroughly alarmed by this statement, because of how sudden and certain it was, so I asked you about it. You deflected, as follows.

The suddenness of this accusation and the suddenly confrontational attitude is alarming. Tell us why you think Vector is mafia.

Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?

I answer in kind. Then you answer the question:

Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?

Because Org's a punk and I don't care if he gets offed.

Will you now answer the question? Once again, why do you suspect Vector is mafia, and how are you so certain?

I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.

Your claims of the obviousness of Vector's guilt disturbed me, because if it was obvious, it would be apparent to more people than just you. You defer your evidence to Vector's response, and that disturbed me as well. Not ready to accuse you quite yet, I respond with the following.

That is by far the weakest argument for the strongest accusation in this game yet.

Oiu, Monsieur Obvious. But, I'm afraid I'll need to let Vector explain.

Another deferral. People start getting suspicious.

Webadict: Vector hasn't been on in 2 hours and may not come on again being late. If you're serious about your accusations (you're not even voting for vector) I too would like a better explaination.

From Webadict:

"I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.

Web, that's Burden of Proof and I can't see how you don't know it.  You're making prove that he's NOT scum without showing why he IS scum? You were doing well against Org, then suddenly jump on Vector like this.  I TOLD you that I won't let any mistake slide. 

Nothing comes out of it, because we decide to lynch Org. Aside from an explanatory note, you end the day with the following:

Well, the thing is that there is a lot to bring up against him. The only problem is that plenty of it could be considered circumstantial at this point. His reaction at this point would have been useful, had it actually been gauged. It has not, however, and is essential useless.

Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies. I will, however, say that the only people I can see as being scum at this point are Org, Vector, eduren, or Jim Groovester, from greatest to least.

I was intrigued by your claim of proof, to say the least. As I said in my previous post, this post made me think that you were the cop, in which case, I could legitimately expect the results of your investigation, provided you didn't die in the night. A tell like that should've painted a giant target on your back, and you're right in that you would be the logical choice for doctor protection.

Anyways, Org is lynched, and the day ends. Night happens, you don't die and BloodBeard is killed. So the first thing I do is bring up your claim of proof:

Anyways, webadict, you said this yesterday:

Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.

You were speaking about Vector, so I'm curious about what sort of proof you have on him.

And you respond with this:

Fool! We have TWO confirmed townies to go off of. That's what we have. We can use everything they said yesterday, since it is proven they are town.

And everything you just is incredibly suspicious. You're voting for eduren because Bloodbeard was suspicious of him and of you? Or what? Are you saying we should lynch eduren because Bloodbeard was RIGHT about you?

Which is, again, another deflection. You just don't like answering my questions directly, do you? So I respond to your suspicions, ask again, and then you respond:

And no, I have, in fact, NOT answered your question. But, I'm waiting for Vector's response as well.

A deliberate refusal to answer a legitimate question, and another deferral to Vector's response. He's already responded several times by this point, but he defends himself once again:

At long last, some answers to your queries.

[Vector's responses]

Nothing seems out of the ordinary. The only person Vector's posts seem to bug is you:

Thank you Vector, for proving that once again, scum love the easy lynch. eduren is, in fact, not scum, and very much not so.

Once again, no proof whatsoever. Only flimsy accusations of cautiousness or going for the easy lynch. Vector has yet to flinch against your scrutiny. So I flat out accuse you, because you said you had proof, rather than mere accusations. The suddenness of your original accusation, the certainty of it, your lack of proof concerning Vector, and that you delivered an enormous tell that the mafia didn't act on convinced me that you were a member of the mafia.

So that is why I accused you.

And now others are wondering why you are so certain that eduren isn't scum, and they are beginning to ponder that your accusation of Org as well as your claim of his tell was to deflect suspicion away from eduren, who was likely going to be the target of the lynch. Convenient that Org just so happened to be an uncooperative town member just at that time, huh?

One more thing, though:

Oiu, Monsieur Obvious.

Fool!

Perhaps you're not thinking clearly:

Do you always patronize the people who are on to you?

[webadict]

Yes, accusations come from nowhere. That's why people accuse with them. I don't hold a gun to your head and shoot immediately. That's irresponsible.

And I see you conveniently left out the last post I posted, which explains exactly what he's done. Nope, I don't see it anywhere in that posts of yours. Must've gotten left out, considering you quoted portions of it...

Oh, and remember how I was waiting for Vector's response? Yeah, it happened. Big whoop. I posted. You want quotes of all those posts? I can do that. I'm lazy and don't want to but I can.

And yes, I feel that a couple of insults help others learn faster. And you can't be "on to me" if there's nothing to be on to.

And do you honestly think I care if I have a target painted on me?

You know what the funny thing is though? You've made a big lapse in judgment, and something about your logic has taken a big turn. You say you're looking for my inspection, and you somehow discount me saying eduren isn't scum as me "protecting my partner." Huh? Weird how he assumes that I wouldn't inspect Vector.

This means two things are wrong with your story, doesn't it?

I was intrigued by your claim of proof, to say the least. As I said in my previous post, this post made me think that you were the cop, in which case, I could legitimately expect the results of your investigation, provided you didn't die in the night. A tell like that should've painted a giant target on your back, and you're right in that you would be the logical choice for doctor protection.

And now others are wondering why you are so certain that eduren isn't scum, and they are beginning to ponder that your accusation of Org as well as your claim of his tell was to deflect suspicion away from eduren, who was likely going to be the target of the lynch. Convenient that Org just so happened to be an uncooperative town member just at that time, huh?

This is what we call "rolefishing." You're looking for the Cop role, and you're voting me in order to find out if I am indeed the Cop. You're coming up with bogus allegations in order to pressure me into roleclaiming. If I do not roleclaim Cop, you lynch me with whatever you can. I'm just another person that might be the Doctor. If I do, you let me live and I get killed tonight (Or protected). That's a nice try, if I do say so myself.

My guess is that you're scum, looking for any investigations made by the Cop and, by association, the Cop himself. Especially since you know A through Z and your times tables, but conveniently forget 2 + 2.

Once again, no proof whatsoever. Only flimsy accusations of cautiousness or going for the easy lynch. Vector has yet to flinch against your scrutiny. So I flat out accuse you, because you said you had proof, rather than mere accusations. The suddenness of your original accusation, the certainty of it, your lack of proof concerning Vector, and that you delivered an enormous tell that the mafia didn't act on convinced me that you were a member of the mafia.

So that is why I accused you.

Are you saying you're accusing me with no proof?

And I'm certain Vector is in the mafia. Whatever you think is what you think, but I know what I know. I can feel it.

[Eduren]

Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.

Can you explain what you meant by this? Is this a hint at a role or a deferment until further developments? If the latter, why were you so sure of your proof coming up the next day?

[Eduren]

Also, can you please answer this Toony?

Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?

Just because its a new day does not mean that my feelings about Toonyman have changed. So Toony, can you elaborate your thoughts on Org's lynch and Blood's NK?

[webadict]

Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.

Can you explain what you meant by this? Is this a hint at a role or a deferment until further developments? If the latter, why were you so sure of your proof coming up the next day?

What part about rolefishing did you not understand?

[Eduren]

Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.

Can you explain what you meant by this? Is this a hint at a role or a deferment until further developments? If the latter, why were you so sure of your proof coming up the next day?

What part about rolefishing did you not understand?

Ummm... what is it?

[Jim Groovester]

incoherence condescension arrogance defensiveness insults

Wow, you really turned it up a notch with that post. If I didn't know any better, I'd thought I'd hit a nerve.

There's so much to pick apart about your post. Accusations come from nowhere? I thought they came after you gathered evidence against somebody. Do you care whether you have a target on your back? No, I suppose you wouldn't. Mafia don't target their own. You know what you know, and you can feel it, huh? If only we could read your (obviously) brilliant mind.

I've made my reasons for accusing you abundantly clear. I will not repeat myself to you, especially after that little tantrum.

[ToonyMan]

Also, can you please answer this Toony?

Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?

Just because its a new day does not mean that my feelings about Toonyman have changed. So Toony, can you elaborate your thoughts on Org's lynch and Blood's NK?

For Org, I didn't know if he was scum or town, but he was doing the usual "lolwut" stuff so I didn't really do anything about it.  He was town though.   

For BloodBeard, nothing I found of him was suspicious so I didn't vote for him.  The first vote I made was just a joke about the Phoenix Arena thing.  I was going to unvote when he posted, like I did.

I believe eduren and Vector are scum.  Thus leaving the rest town.

That's the opposite of what I wanted you to answer...

So you want me to tell you why I think everybody else is town?  That'll take about 10 or 20 minutes.  If you want.

   Funny, you posted almost right after I posted this.

[webadict]

incoherence condescension arrogance defensiveness insults

Wow, you really turned it up a notch with that post. If I didn't know any better, I'd thought I'd hit a nerve.

There's so much to pick apart about your post. Accusations come from nowhere? I thought they came after you gathered evidence against somebody. Do you care whether you have a target on your back? No, I suppose you wouldn't. Mafia don't target their own. You know what you know, and you can feel it, huh? If only we could read your (obviously) brilliant mind.

I've made my reasons for accusing you abundantly clear. I will not repeat myself to you, especially after that little tantrum.

I think you added a certain voice to my posts that wasn't there.

You see, if I have a target on me, big whoop. I'd rather have it on me than someone else, because it's much harder for a newbie to defend against this. Seeing as how paper thin your evidence is, and certainly circumstantial.

Tantrum? That was a clear explanation that you purposely left out information critical to any defense I had. Are you saying everything I said was now a lie? Or that it's contrary to your accusation?

And yes. It's called intuition. I can feel there's something very wrong about his posts. There's nothing wrong with that, but I can list specific parts of his posts that aren't right:

1. I'm voting for dakarian because eduren doesn't look that dangerous.  Dakarian is lurking.  Eduren is currently bumbling around.  He is acting either like scum or like he doesn't know what he's doing.  For example, it seems that the ideal questions are psychological ones (like the color one).  He is asking questions that do not increase paranoia in the suspect, so at the moment I am considering him less dangerous.

Then, he's also running scared already.  His posts have a frightened tone and he's not behaving like he's in control anymore.  I figured I would FoS him (sorry, that's what I meant by casting suspicions) instead of using up my vote, because I want dakarian to feel like he/she/it has something serious to address and votes seem to outweigh FoS-ing.  Essentially, the goal is to induce a similar degree of panic in dakarian to that in eduren.

2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you?  The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view.  Eduren, you are acting very odd.

Here he's being really cautious. He's voting for dakarian, who hasn't posted yet, yet also FoSing eduren. Honestly, I think dakarian is the other scum, but that's also a feeling, but it goes with the First Day scumtell.

He's trying to continue the random voting to appear as scumhunting without having to actually analyze posts. The easiest way is to vote people who have posted little.

I'm keeping with dakarian until he finishes getting the same grilling the rest of us had to go through, but otherwise Jim Groovester's proposal seems reasonable enough.


And to ToonyMan, I was wondering if you could explain precisely which behaviors are making you think the rest of us are crazy.

Again, he's not going with picking one person until dakarian was "grilled." And of course, we all know who he goes after...

Lurkers.  I'm currently satisfied with dakarian's logic-blocks, as he has (in my mind, at least) undone his lurking.  I find it difficult to believe that Org has absolutely zero time to do anything but defend himself, however.  At the moment, I'd mark him as the member who has contributed the least to the town's efforts.  Eduren seems quite scummy, but at least we know something about him.  Even data on his incompetence is better than no data whatsoever.

So, Org for now, with the hope of pressuring him into some analytical contributions.

He explains that he's only voting him because he hasn't explained his reasoning. He's pressuring him because he's STILL "scumhunting," and not focusing on people. It makes him appear active while information is not forthcoming. He's actively lurking.

Well, maybe.  It seems that instead of the three lynch targets we had before (ToonyMan, dakarian, eduren), we're down to eduren and Org.

So, you two: why should we lynch the other one?  If you think the other person is not lynch-worthy, please bring up a third person you want to see dead and explain why you wouldn't attack your counterpart.

This is the same. It's just a bad thing in general to ask. And then he generalizes the question. He's still NOT focusing. He's being as broad as he possibly can to avoid suspicion.

Ah, okay.  It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right.  If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.

I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.

To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick?  Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?

It's a very broad question AND he's doesn't have to do anything besides agree. He's NOT scumhunting, and never has.

Sorry for the long wait--I was at a friend's house.

At this point, I don't really see any reason to go off and defend myself against webadict (though I am still willing to).  To Free Beer's argument, however, I will state that my previous defense of Org was time-related.  At that point, I thought his inactivity was reasonable.  Now it is not.  If there are any other questions in relation to Free Beer or webadict's statements, I'll be glad to answer them.

In any case, we have answers from ToonyMan and eduren, though Org is suspiciously silent.  We also seem to have no defined person to lynch.  Opinions?

This is very silly. Why not post in what way you've contributed to the conversation or some such? Or does everyone else have to prove their not mafia and not you? He says there's no point but he's willing to? I've even asked him to, and he hasn't, so it's not that he's willing to. It's that he wants to appear as though he's willing to and avoid further scrutiny.

And look how he actively chooses NOT to specify anyone! He's trying to actively lurk, avoiding suspicion as best as he can. ("It wasn't MY idea to lynch Org. I just went along with it")

Blargh, sorry for failing to properly explain myself.  What I mean is this:

1. You didn't seem to have any legitimate claims on me.  It looked like a bluff-attack, so I wasn't strongly concerned about it.

2. Various people have jumped up and made my arguments for me while I was out.  Why repeat what they've said?  If you have further questions, question me and I'd be happy to answer.  I simply felt that that particular accusation had been answered in full.

You have to defend yourself. You can't let others do it for you, because they do not know what you meant or why you did things. All accusations are serious.

I'm telling you, he's mafia.

[Vector]

First off, answers to Free Beer.

1. I kept my vote on Org because even with his defensive posts, he was still not providing useful information for the town.  Though he managed to put up a mild shield, he did not answer any of the questions posed to him, and he defended himself only when it was easy and required no analysis.

Also, my thought was that webadict was a strong proponent of the Org lynch, while ToonyMan was going for eduren.  Given that I considered ToonyMan town at the time (after his varied frustrated posts), I was more interested on getting information about webadict.  Therefore, Org seemed like a better choice.

2. To be honest, I'm starting to draw away from eduren.  He seems like a confused newb who doesn't really know what he's doing, and his behavior has greatly changed after complaints.  Of course, that could be a mafia ploy... So, my suspicion is turning more strongly towards webadict, but I would not be at all surprised if he were working with eduren.  I'll explain more about that later.

3. I am currently inclined to think that ToonyMan is town, mostly due to reading more posts of his in other threads.  First of all, he seems to be acting normally for him; secondly, he has engaged in no behavior I can fully consider suspicious; third, he never reacted with panic or anger, but only frustration and a kind of weariness.  Perhaps his emotional cloaking is better than I imagine, but at this point his reaction seemed far more fitting of town than scum.

4. BloodBeard seems like someone one would kill because he's in the middle.  He isn't spewing detailed posts like ToonyMan, dakarian, or webadict, but he also isn't doing stupid things right and left that would get him lynched.  Also, he tended towards lurkerdom, so he had very few damning connections to other people.

[ToonyMan]

Meph, what's the vote count?  I need to see it.

[dakarian]

First off: finally the weekend, so I can post more regularly. 

Second: i did a quick scan of what happened, and what I can pull:

UGG for Org being town.  Usefull or not, any mislynch is a step toward a mafia win.  It's also why I don't go right after lurkers unless they show something other than just lurking.

As for why Blood and not me: I'm tempted to think that they think I can be manipulated and am not around enough to be proactive enough.  Simply put, GIGO.  I have to make sure I'm not being fed what the mafia WANTS me to think.  I'm bothered that I went towards Org there and don't want it to happen again.

As for who I think is scum: mind if I do a scan first?  There HAS to be enough info to find someone manipulating things.  For now everyone is on the table.

Be back with the results.