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[Rowanas]

If beds are implemented in this way, I'd like to see the standard wooden bed stopping dwarves being unhappy, but the other stuff should only be added like you might add cabinets and stuff, to increase value and happiness. Forcing players to give mattresses etc just to stop a tantrum would be unacceptable, as many players don't even have a cloth industry, and aren't interested in being forced into one

EDIT: increasing vale and happiness

[forsaken1111]

If beds are implemented in this way, I'd like to see the standard wooden bed stopping dwarves being unhappy, but the other stuff should only be added like you might add cabinets and stuff, to increase vale and happiness. Forcing players to give mattresses etc just to stop a tantrum would be unacceptable, as many players don't even have a cloth industry, and aren't interested in being forced into one.

Agreed, a simple bed should be sufficient for no happy or unhappy thought. Perhaps a bed by itself simply includes a frame and a mattress of gravel. They're dwarves after all. Better beds would require other additions and adornments.

[Granite26]

Straw stuffing is really more period appropriate, don't you think?

And any system to obtain straw would be so trivial as to merely increase the amount of (lag inducing) hauling going on.

[Grendus]

Straw stuffing is really more period appropriate, don't you think?

And any system to obtain straw would be so trivial as to merely increase the amount of (lag inducing) hauling going on.

I agree. I think a lot of us are thinking in modern times where we have inner-spring mattresses with space age stuffing. In the time period DF is set in, most commoners slept on straw pallets. Only nobles had feather beds, it was very hard to find enough feathers to stuff an entire mattress as they were used for other things like fletching. Straw, on the other hand, was dirt cheap, and fairly soft.

I could see mattresses being stuffed with straw (which would be done by default for abstraction), feathers (which would be gathered into bags at a butcher's shop from chickens or wild birds), sand (which would make them absurdly heavy), or cloth.


Essentially what I'm thinking of for revamping beds is three types of bed - bedding, mattress, and bed frame. Any one of the three can be used for sleeping, and any one of the three will reduce unhappy thoughts. One of the three will halve the unhappy thought from sleeping on the ground, and if placed in their room will reduce it by 75%. Any two bed items would remove the unhappy thought and if placed in their room will allow them to "admire" their own bed. All three would result in the "Slept in a warm bed" happy thought. At any stage, the quality and material value of the bedding would effect the value of the thoughts associated with the bed.

In order to place the beds, a new menu would have to be added where the current bed menu is. 'b'->'b' would take you into the bedding menu, which would have options for bedding, mattress, bed frame, frame with bedding, frame with mattress, mattress with bedding, or complete bed. From there it would be built like any other object that requires multiple items, and when removed it would break down into it's component parts.

While this might be difficult for new players to pick up, when/if a tutorial is created it would be fairly easy to instruct new players to build some bedding, then later tell them about creating mattresses and bed frames to make their dwarves even happier. As is, the only real detriments to dwarf happiness are hated vermin, death, and destruction of artifacts. All the other unhappy thoughts can be controlled with a legendary dining room and maybe a waterfall.

[forsaken1111]

Straw stuffing is really more period appropriate, don't you think?

And any system to obtain straw would be so trivial as to merely increase the amount of (lag inducing) hauling going on.

So to make a bed I now have to grow grain?

[Felblood]

Straw stuffing is really more period appropriate, don't you think?

And any system to obtain straw would be so trivial as to merely increase the amount of (lag inducing) hauling going on.

So to make a bed I now have to grow grain?

Yeah, that's why I recommended wool stuffing. Straw makes more sense for humans, but cave wheat and longland grass are very labor intensive ways to produce food, especially for a small fort, with only seven dwarves.

Currently, a starting fort needs wood and a carpenter to produce beds. If we replace basic wood beds with sleeping mats, then a starting fort will need a tailor and cloth (or rope reeds and a weaver).

One upside is that it might be possible to start the game with cloth, mats, or even a few stuffed mattresses, giving players the freedom to start with no carpenter or weaver/tailor, if they are willing to pay for the camping gear upfront.

[Granite26]

Or you could just gather some weeds and dry them out.  Sure, plump helmets are fungi and thus don't produce the detritus of cave wheat, but still.

The point isn't 'Use straw and force people to farm because it's period appropriate' it's 'Use straw because it's free and everywhere and can be assumed to be pulled out of the air'

[Felblood]

So your intent is to replace the current abstraction (bedding appears out of thin air) with a slightly different one (stuffing for bedding appears out of thin air)?

More and more interesting ways to produce bedding are a nice bonus, but isn't the point to stop dwarves from pulling things out of thin air?

Actually implementing straw would lead to a place where animals could require straw, either as fodder or as bedding, but that is another issue, for a future with a more efficient item tracking system.

[Granite26]

for a future with a more efficient item tracking system.

That's kinda where I'm coming from...  my .02 is all

[buman]

I would like to see more conditions cause the dwarves to be unhappy, rather then add a feature to clothing that removes unhappy thoughts.
Currently a large dinning room will make pretty much anyone happy, even if they just had their child smashed by a bridge and rot in the moat.

[Maw]

Straw stuffing is really more period appropriate, don't you think?

And any system to obtain straw would be so trivial as to merely increase the amount of (lag inducing) hauling going on.

I agree. I think a lot of us are thinking in modern times where we have inner-spring mattresses with space age stuffing. In the time period DF is set in, most commoners slept on straw pallets. Only nobles had feather beds, it was very hard to find enough feathers to stuff an entire mattress as they were used for other things like fletching. Straw, on the other hand, was dirt cheap, and fairly soft.

I could see mattresses being stuffed with straw (which would be done by default for abstraction), feathers (which would be gathered into bags at a butcher's shop from chickens or wild birds), sand (which would make them absurdly heavy), or cloth.


Essentially what I'm thinking of for revamping beds is three types of bed - bedding, mattress, and bed frame. Any one of the three can be used for sleeping, and any one of the three will reduce unhappy thoughts. One of the three will halve the unhappy thought from sleeping on the ground, and if placed in their room will reduce it by 75%. Any two bed items would remove the unhappy thought and if placed in their room will allow them to "admire" their own bed. All three would result in the "Slept in a warm bed" happy thought. At any stage, the quality and material value of the bedding would effect the value of the thoughts associated with the bed.

In order to place the beds, a new menu would have to be added where the current bed menu is. 'b'->'b' would take you into the bedding menu, which would have options for bedding, mattress, bed frame, frame with bedding, frame with mattress, mattress with bedding, or complete bed. From there it would be built like any other object that requires multiple items, and when removed it would break down into it's component parts.

{snip}

Have been thinking about the three types section previously.  Would also suggest incorporating more than one production line for both variation and availability.

Hunter -> Butcher -> Tanner: produce fur skins that can be used as either bedding (covers) or mattress (sleep on a pile of fur skins).

Farmer -> Thresher -> Weaver -> Clothier: to produce either bedding (covers, sheets) or mattress (folded cloth stuffed into a surrounding cloth restraint)

Miner -> Mason: produce stone bedframe (option for Engraver to engrave?), or stone supports.

Woodcutter -> Carpenter: produce wood bedframe (option for Engraver to engrave?), or wood supports (the slats under the modern day mattress).

All four should be required for a maximum value bed (thus requiring the build up of supporting industries, with decreasing combinations of three, two even one to produce at least one bed to satisfy bedding requirements.

I.e. build bed by a pile of fur skins, layers of stacked cloth, wood bedframe (pallet) etc.  By no means comfortable, but better than nothing.

Provides the minimalist option (frequently used when starting out), with various options to build complexity on.

[Lord Shonus]

Bolts and arrows would be made out of wood or reeds and tipped with different materials. Bone and rock tips wouldn't be reusable but metal ones would be. Shafts wouldn't shatter as readily and ranged weapon mechanics would need to be fixed to lower the requirement for ammo to more reasonable levels

My only real objection here is that making shafts for arrows/bolts out of wood was a bad idea for anything except hunting, and reed was even worse. For war, metal was used for both shaft and tip, except at stone-age technology.

[Pilsu]

Cloth Shoes are slippers, so they're valid.  Perhaps they shouldn't be as good as leather though.

Are you seriously suggesting you'd waltz about outside wearing slippers? 

I agree about the value of goods.  There should be an oportunity cost to a poorly crafted good.  I'd like to see a better curve on skill: quick to get up to producing no quality, hard to get past.  Caravan profits of more than 10% would also help this.

It's possible that menial labor could be a skill that doesn't affect the job.  You don't get better at carrying stuff, but the skill ranks up and you get strength for it. 

No, a stat rework makes more sense for that

While yes, it is a bit too easy to buy out caravans, I might also remind you that it is done largely with stacks of food; that industry is planned on being fleshed out and nerfed.  I might also remind you that in the time scale of the game, making an item at a forge already takes a couple days of non-stop labor, unless skill is high enough.  But even then, all the materials must be hauled to the workshop, which can also take time, if only because the stockpile ran out of supplies from lack of room.

With the food exploit gone buying out caravans will still be laughably easy. Not on the first year of course but still very doable. Especially when offloading 200k worth of syrup on a caravan doesn't immediately get you 10 wagons in year 2

Proper bedding would be nice to have (as the current system is painfully abstract), but I'm concerned with the effects it could have on the early game, especially if bedding requires stuffing of some sort. Rather than starting with feathers, I would recommend bringing in sheep and shearing (along with milkable cows), as a feather industry would take too long to set up cheaply (as butchering destroys the chicken, whereas sheep are renewable), and thus feather beds are a better grade of bedding, reserved for more developed fortresses. Additionally, it should be possible to manufacture a simple sleeping mat, from a single bolt of cloth, to allow players the freedom to embark with neither chickens nor sheep. Monster feathers would have to be inferior to chicken feathers, to give chickens a reason to exist, on chasm maps (Think goblin armor).

It was sort of implied that the bedding itself could be placed on the ground and used. It wouldn't do anything to the bad thought for sleeping on rocks though, just prevent an additional one. Bedding for the dwarves should be included in the starting wagon for free. If you want mattresses, you have to buy them or make them yourself. They're really not necessary

The existence of deer didn't trivialize cows. Chickens would still be useful, the feathers are just an extra. Including straw in the game is an inevitability in itself and has a variety of uses


As for engraving, smoothing simply wouldn't grant XP. You don't learn to engrave pictures by sort of diddling with stone. If you really want, you could grant material affinity for smoothing granite etcetera but engraving pictures should require lots and lots of practice. It isn't a skill you become proficient in by simply knowing how to work stone

My only real objection here is that making shafts for arrows/bolts out of wood was a bad idea for anything except hunting, and reed was even worse. For war, metal was used for both shaft and tip, except at stone-age technology.

Wikipedia said that arrows were traditionally made of wood. I'm going to need a reliable source to take the claim of full metal arrows seriously

[Granite26]

Cloth Shoes are slippers, so they're valid.  Perhaps they shouldn't be as good as leather though.

Are you seriously suggesting you'd waltz about outside wearing slippers? 

I'm probably a bad example, because I wear shoes out of social necessity only.

I'm not saying you don't have a point, just taking out cloth shoes is fixing A by breaking B, and neither of them really have much to argue for being better.

[Pilsu]

There's really no real to include cloth shoes. If you want to make sandals with wood or something, that's fine but real comfortable shoes would invariably be leather.