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[Armok]

Right now as in "this summer" or "this millennia"?

[Shima]

Most likely the cosmic "forever since a certain point".  So yeah, I'd say this millennium.  It's a good thing Toady's out there fighting the good fight, uncorrupted by money and politics and pandering and whatnot.  From what I know of him, he'll take the game to the grave before he lets anyone else take it.

[MMad]

A design document substitutes for a script.

So does a game. You don't just sit down and go 'okay well I guess we should get started' and start programming the game with no idea where it's going.

You'd be surprised. Many, many games have started with people just messing around, coming up with some fun basic gameplay, then just continuing to work on it. In a large-scale professional project, sure documentation is very important to keep track of where you're going and what you've done. But it's absolutely possible to make AAA products without a general design document, and an iterative process that continues to change and refine features and ideas as the game progresses is probably even the norm nowadays.

I don't think it does...  Or rather, a design document of sufficient level doesn't get written for 99.9% of all games written.  It is my opinion that you can judge the quality of a movie by it's script better than you can judge a game by the quality of the design documents that get written.

True. Although even movie scripts can turn out very, very differently with different directors, too.

There's...  There's nothing notable in this.  He's describing publicly funded small business.  That's all.

True, the business plan is not new, but making games this way is. Especially looking for funding from fans over the internet. Even small fan-funded projects like Mount&Blade and DF use slightly different systems. I'm not sure this idea would be much better or different, but it's one more idea that might help someone get started.

[Neruz]

All of which completely fails to take into account the fact that in the games industry DF is a gigantic outlier. Attempting to apply standard marketing and development plans to DF is a complete and total waste of time, because it does not even remotely fall into the expected ranges.

DF is one of those one-in-a-million games that should never have even got off the ground and nobody expects will see completion. The fact that it's gotten as far as it has is Toady's triumph against massive odds.



I should also add that judging a movie by it's script is incredibly foolhardy. When DD's are made by big companies they tend to be fairly static (if they're done right), scripts on the other hand are incredibly fluid. Michael Bay was making changes to the script of Transformers 2 in the final week of production. Movie directors are well known for modifying the script on the fly, all the way up until the release of the movie, and sometimes they keep going even then.

[Fossaman]

I find the comparison between the approach described in the article and indie films very interesting, especially having played Portal and Half-Life 2. Those games were almost more like 'playing' a movie than a video game. Sure, they both had innovative ideas behind them, but those ideas would be rather bland if it didn't have the plot backing it up. I'd be very interested to see more story-based gaming, and community funding is probably a good way to get good games of that sort. But DF really is a horse of a different color--something about being a 'world simulator' at its base, maybe?

[Protactinium]

I find the comparison between the approach described in the article and indie films very interesting, especially having played Portal and Half-Life 2. Those games were almost more like 'playing' a movie than a video game. Sure, they both had innovative ideas behind them, but those ideas would be rather bland if it didn't have the plot backing it up. I'd be very interested to see more story-based gaming, and community funding is probably a good way to get good games of that sort. But DF really is a horse of a different color--something about being a 'world simulator' at its base, maybe?

This is how video games will be eventually accepted as a medium of art in the world, as an 'interactive story-telling media'. Arcade games and simulations are fun, like a romance novel (to some) or an action film (to some), and then there's the true storytelling with messages and statements to make you think, which we know exist in literature and painting and theater and cinema and etc.

[Gantolandon]

and then there's the true storytelling with messages and statements to make you think, which we know exist in literature and painting and theater and cinema and etc.

I don't agree.

I wouldn't define the art as something that necessarily "makes you think". It would depend how do you define "thinking about an art object", but what messages can you see, for example, in "Mona Lisa"?

[GreenMarine]

What's with the Valve hate?

[Protactinium]

and then there's the true storytelling with messages and statements to make you think, which we know exist in literature and painting and theater and cinema and etc.

I don't agree.

I wouldn't define the art as something that necessarily "makes you think". It would depend how do you define "thinking about an art object", but what messages can you see, for example, in "Mona Lisa"?

I would be dishonest if I spoke with authority or conviction on the validity of my assessment of how 'art' is actually defined. I'll let the subject lie without any more of my input.

[MMad]

All of which completely fails to take into account the fact that in the games industry DF is a gigantic outlier. Attempting to apply standard marketing and development plans to DF is a complete and total waste of time, because it does not even remotely fall into the expected ranges.

DF is one of those one-in-a-million games that should never have even got off the ground and nobody expects will see completion. The fact that it's gotten as far as it has is Toady's triumph against massive odds.

I absolutely agree. I don't think anyone was talking about DF here.

I should also add that judging a movie by it's script is incredibly foolhardy. When DD's are made by big companies they tend to be fairly static (if they're done right), scripts on the other hand are incredibly fluid.

To the extent that this is true, it is only so because of games being harder to change late in the process. Removing or moving a scene in a movie is relatively straightforward in the final editing phase, while taking out, changing or adding features to a game weeks before GM is a scary proposition since it's very likely to cause bugs that you won't find in time.

But even then, many game companies keep changing, fixing, refining and reworking their games way past release, either to fix problems in response to player feedback or to add new content and mechanics to keep people interested.

[Neruz]

I should also add that judging a movie by it's script is incredibly foolhardy. When DD's are made by big companies they tend to be fairly static (if they're done right), scripts on the other hand are incredibly fluid.

To the extent that this is true, it is only so because of games being harder to change late in the process. Removing or moving a scene in a movie is relatively straightforward in the final editing phase, while taking out, changing or adding features to a game weeks before GM is a scary proposition since it's very likely to cause bugs that you won't find in time.

But even then, many game companies keep changing, fixing, refining and reworking their games way past release, either to fix problems in response to player feedback or to add new content and mechanics to keep people interested.

Hence why i said when they're done right. One of the first things you learn when working in the games industry is that most people do not do design documents properly. It's difficult to tell if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

[jaked122]

if toady doesn't want to be corrupted, he should never let the god damned ESRB know about dwarf fortress, let alone rate it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Most likely the cosmic "forever since a certain point".  So yeah, I'd say this millennium.  It's a good thing Toady's out there fighting the good fight, uncorrupted by money and politics and pandering and whatnot.  From what I know of him, he'll take the game to the grave before he lets anyone else take it.

It's a good thing Toady's out there fighting the good fight, uncorrupted by money and politics and pandering and whatnot.

fighting the good fight

THREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE TOAAD! Don't feed the carp! That is all.

[Sizik]

if toady doesn't want to be corrupted, he should never let the god damned ESRB know about dwarf fortress, let alone rate it.

I don't see how that would hurt him. I think DF would get rated T at most, for Animated Blood, Fantasy Violence, Use of Alcohol, and Violent References.

Also, ratings are voluntary.

[sneakey pete]

It depends on what happens with the laws regarding ratings in the future really. with the current system it really wouldn't matter, since the game is just digitally distributed. However, some governments are trying (well, wanting) to make it so that unrated or refused classification games can't even be sold etc. over the internet. Which could then block games like DF becaues they're not classified (or would possibly get a bad classification).

Probably not worht worrying about though.