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[Capntastic]

All I could get out of re-reading what he said is that it's not modern enough.   But even that doesn't mean anything.

[zarmazarma]

I think that it's far beyond quality.

[Dae]

The DF website is fine. With up-to-date screenshots, perhaps another banner if someone feels like drawing one, it could be better, though.
Perhaps Toady could show some screenshots from Khazad or 3Dwarf, with due credits and explaining that it is not in-game.

However, I really don't like the Bay12Games page. I know it feels retro and the like, but it's almost repellent. You just need to change a few things in the CSS, like putting something around the menu, placing the content to the center of the page (so that "acknowledgement" isn't over it), ...
Yet, it isn't urgent. When you google 'Dwarf Fortress Website', you end up at the DF page, not Bay12.

[Muz]

I sort of think that it's intentionally bad.. just like the Sub Games and certain parts of LCS are intentionally bad. Honestly, I sort of enjoy it that way

[Granite26]

All I could get out of re-reading what he said is that it's not modern enough.   But even that doesn't mean anything.

In all fairness, the DF regulars tend to fiercely defend its retro chic with massive (though polite) disagreement with any 'make it look prettier' comment that comes along.  It's easy for people who DO think that DF things should be prettier (and thus better signal the value of the game to outsiders) to feel like they are being attacked.

Correctly or not, people unfamiliar with a project will judge the time put into a project by the box, the screenshots, and a webpage.  That doesn't apply to us of course, but it does apply to potential new players

(Although on the other side, I think Toady intends a certain guerilla aspect this early in development because he doesn't want people who would be big fans of 1.0 being turned off of .29 because of the work it still needs.)

[Davion]

I think the website is functional and easy to navigate. If anything just updating the banner, blurry divider graphic, and the background tile would be enough. The donation monster must stay, though.

[DennyTom]

It is interesting how many people look at page with words "it is ok, when you get used to it, you will love it". I thing that that is mistake.

In Czech Republic we have one saying: "When cathing a bird, they sing him a pretty song" (poorly translated). When you want to lure someone, you should use all your beautiful sirens and not that grandma siren because of nostalgia.

The website is not there for the comunity, this forum is for the comunity. We do not even need that page - with exception of actual version we have everything here, on dfma, dffd and wiki. Bay12 website is not there for us, it is there for the rest of world. It should be interesting immidiately and not after someone gets used to it.

[Mandaril]

A terrible website is a website that

1)is slow as hell
2)is hard to navigate
3)makes every kind of shit jump in your face (in addition to installing trojans & spyware)

Dwarf Fortress / Bay 12 games sites are none of those. Easy to use, fast to use, simple, does what it's supposed to do without extra crap. But that's just me.

Let me give you an example of a total failure site:
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/
THAT kind of thing puts me off. Total mess.

Website that WORKS does not put me off.

[LegoLord]

It is interesting how many people look at page with words "it is ok, when you get used to it, you will love it". I thing that that is mistake.

Dude, the link in the original post is probably the second time I saw the Bay 12 page.  The first time I left quickly because it wasn't where I had meant to go (mis-clicked).  I see no problem with it.  There is no getting used to it.  It just doesn't have anything flashy.

[Greiger]

The bay 12 site isn't terrible in my opinion.  It's not great, but certainly not terrible.  There is room for improvement, some kind of background other than flat grey would be nice, but I would prefer something subtle.  Folks with higher resolutions end up with nothing on the entire right side of the screen, and the main page looks like it could have been done in a text editor without html.

But at the same time I like the quick loading. And even with no loading time hits I don't think the page should look really flashy anyway.  And the last two things would need more content added to actually work.  Which seems difficult when the page sums up bay12 as I am aware nicely.  And of course all this would take time away from Toady's coding or Three Toe's writing.

[Sourlout]

Let me just ask one question, if the dwarf fortress and the bay12games website was brought up to speed with the year 2009, (or heck lets say it is the super-est, slickest, polish-est website on the net) would it get more people into dwarf fortress?  This is what you suggest.

My answer is no, for the following reasons: people who start playing dwarf fortress have to get over the graphics, one way or the other.  Even if every visitor to the site tried out the game, due to the website alone, honestly do you think those players would have enough of an incentive to overcome the learning curve of the game?   

For the most of us, it is by word of mouth or a super review on the internet that gets us into Dwarf Fortress.  We started playing dwarf fortress with the promise of an opened ended game that embodied the phrase "losing is fun".  I remember the first time I booted up Dwarf Fortress; it was an ascii nightmare where nothing made sense.  I quit the game after 5-10 minutes of trying to make sense of it. 

However, because of those internet reviews, I went back at it.  Those lithe promises drew me back into trying the game again.  I had reason to keep trying.  Now, I can't stop playing.

If it was just a shinny website, I don't think I would have kept at it.  I would have tried it out and moved on.  I hate to trump the often used phrase, but substance > graphics.

[Jreengus]

I also think too many people are confusing Toady with a normal business, it's not like he has to put on a good face because he wants your money before you get anything, once you are on the website all it will take is a click to start downloading I honestly cannot fathom the mindset of someone who is going to go on the website then think "No I don't like this website so I'm not going to download"

[Capntastic]

I also think too many people are confusing Toady with a normal business,

This is the right of it.   And, as I've demonstrated, the site is as good if not better than any other roguelike site.

[cowofdoom78963]

I also think too many people are confusing Toady with a normal business,

This is the right of it.   And, as I've demonstrated, the site is as good if not better than any other roguelike site.

Well its a pretty sucky roguelike site due to the lack of random generation. Thats the most important thing when making a roguelike.

[SolarShado]

My 2 dwarfbucks: I think the site should have a more consistent look/feel. The main page is all left-aligned (leading to, as someone else mentioned, the left half of the screen being empty), then the DF section is all centered. Each of the "project" pages have a totaly different color scheme. The home page has 5 links to the forums (one by each project name plus one in the navbar).

If the pages were re-organized and re-formatted, I know it would irk me less. Beyond that, who can really say?

On the other hand, a very nice looking site (in adition to taking time, and possibly being slower) could give the impression that DF is a nice-looking, polished game, which, for all its awesome, IMO, it is neither particularly nice looking nor highly polished. Newcomers could feel betrayed by a neat, pretty site when they discover what DF is actually like.

(Note: I play DF almost as ugly as possible, I not only don't use Graphics Sets, I abhor them.)

As the site is now, it gives newcomers the impression of a disorganized mess. While that's not a terribly flattering image, I feel that it isn't entirely untrue.

Hmm... I think I just played both sides of the discussion. Maybe I should go in to politics...