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[Aqizzar]

I think some of you are getting a little-righteous over this guy.  He knows Toribash and Dwarf Fortress are indie games, not commercial products.  He acknowledged such a difference in Dwarf Fortress's front end.  He's raising the same criticism so many people in the What Turns You Off? thread - that being one man's project in alpha is still no excuse for a confusing, counter-intuitive interface.  It does sound to me like he gave up way too quickly, but that doesn't invalidate his point.

[Jakkarra]

Don't blame me, im just the Messenger.

i know you arent right now though, i was simply attempting to show people a new review on us.

[Enzo]

I think some of you are getting a little-righteous over this guy.  He knows Toribash and Dwarf Fortress are indie games, not commercial products.  He acknowledged such a difference in Dwarf Fortress's front end.  He's raising the same criticism so many people in the What Turns You Off? thread - that being one man's project in alpha is still no excuse for a confusing, counter-intuitive interface.  It does sound to me like he gave up way too quickly, but that doesn't invalidate his point.

Eh, what bugged me wasn't the legitimate gripes about the interface. Yes, it's really obtuse about certain things. But even if the controls were completely intuitive you would still need a giant tutorial to fully understand the game, since it's just complex in it's nature. The "I have to waste my precious time reading a wiki article to understand this game" complaint is what bugs me. It's like...dude. You were going to spend that time playing videogames. Get over yourself.

[Yanlin]

I think some of you are getting a little-righteous over this guy.  He knows Toribash and Dwarf Fortress are indie games, not commercial products.  He acknowledged such a difference in Dwarf Fortress's front end.  He's raising the same criticism so many people in the What Turns You Off? thread - that being one man's project in alpha is still no excuse for a confusing, counter-intuitive interface.  It does sound to me like he gave up way too quickly, but that doesn't invalidate his point.

Eh, what bugged me wasn't the legitimate gripes about the interface. Yes, it's really obtuse about certain things. But even if the controls were completely intuitive you would still need a giant tutorial to fully understand the game, since it's just complex in it's nature. The "I have to waste my precious time reading a wiki article to understand this game" complaint is what bugs me. It's like...dude. You were going to spend that time playing videogames. Get over yourself.

It's not intuitive AT ALL. It's intuitive once you've grasped it. But until then, it's like a waterbogged swamp.

[Enzo]

I never said the controls were intuitive, Yan. They're not, even once you've learned them. 3 or 4 different buttons to view a square? Madness. I presented a hypothetical situation in which they were.

But even if the controls were completely intuitive you would still need a giant tutorial to fully understand the game, since it's just complex in it's nature.

[cerapa]

Heh, look at that. A reviewer complaining that 2 of my most liked games are too complex.

I notice a pattern.

[Leafsnail]

Had a go at TB.  Kinda fun, actually.  Killed three people with a full body/ arm/ wrist spin on double swords mode.  Then get pwned by an expert.

[Muz]

I dunno.. am I the only one who gets annoyed by reviewers who are too lazy to pick up a game? Though I don't really blame him for not getting DF. I just find it a little annoying how some reviewers go "the puzzles are too hard", "the missions are too tough", "guitar hero is impossible to play on medium", "the whole game plays like a tutorial and [building in tutorial level] is ugly" (by a guy who never got past the tutorial). And the classic "I hate games like this, but after playing it, I found out that I don't understand anything and hate the genre even more".

[Jakkarra]

that DOES annoy me muz, not just Joo.

i wish they'd be less biased, saying "Although i think ist shity, im sure there are others that would really enjoy it"

rather than the ubiqutous

"Its too hard/challenging/easy/complicated for my puny mind, therefore it is shitty. noone will like it. its lame. bugger off."

[Jreengus]

Soooo, I'm guessing you two aren't big fans of zero punctuation.

[Jakkarra]

oh, no i love ZP.

thats funny, he does it for the Lulz.

rather than a deadly serious reviewer.

[Muz]

Hah, ZP is a rare exception. I got annoyed about how people were proud of them dissing things, so I watched it to see what the fuss was all about. Found it rather amusing.

[Leafsnail]

We all know ZP isn't completely serious, and that he deliberately goes for the bad points.  Because it's, well, funny.  And he doesn't usually just get stuck on a tutorial level and whine about it.

[Zironic]

http://www.destructoid.com/indie-nation-47-games-i-do-not-understand-118987.phtml

hehe. he dosent Get us.

This man is a fool. I learned to play DF in only 3 hours. Getting past sieges and stuff slowly followed. If he can't get into DF, then he didn't want to try at all. There is like 3 things you need to know to play df.
1.You need 8 pieces of wood - 7 beds and a bucket.
2. You need to make a farm or have a hunter and a butcher/tanner shop -right away.
3. channels are uncrossable. If your having trouble with enemies, dig a channel around you.

[Dakk]

You're so evil.  Now I'm going to have to try Toribash.  It looks weirdly amazing.

It's not.

It is too, if you can stand the jerkface userbase and the learning curve, its pretty fun to knock people's heads out and winning a fight while your body is being split apart by cleverly throwing a part of your oponent on the floor.

Regarding the OP, c'mom, the guy says Portal is a confusing game, mechanics wise. DF was my very first roguelike, and i started truly enjoying it after some hours of gameplay, i cound't believe how deep and complex this thing was. One week later i built my first set of stacked pumps without looking at any tutorial apart from the wiki's pages on mechanisms, axles and pumps, which isn't that awesome considering i did this to raise water to the same z level of a well, and i was totally oblivious of the fact wells can use water several z levels below them
This sorta killed other roguelikes for me though, because i came upon things like dungeon crawl and ADOM expecting the same ammount of detail and depth, and was disappointed 

Toribash isn't hard to figure out, but its really hard to get into it and play it the way it was supposed to be played. It took me a week to figure out what exactly i was doing, and how to do it effectively, but after that it became alot easier. Certain modes are not for the faint of hard though, mainly the ones with fewer frames per turn were you many times have to alter your moves completely in a single turn in order to avoid being split apart by a cleverly placed kick, but its totally possible and hella lot of fun.

EDIT: I did need ALOT of help to figure out what key does what in DF, simply cause of the interface being completely unintuitive. It too me days to find out how to build furnaces, and at least 2 hours to learn how to properly use ladders.