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[Pilsu]

3 meters thick steel door would weigh several tonnes and be almost impossible to move. I would like to see some kind of heavy gates that need several dwarves to crank open but let's not go overboard

[Maw]

Oh course, any creature with an IQ higher than a bag of rocks can get past a (unlocked) door

http://www.flickr.com/photos/goldberg/229551714/ 

[Maw]

This may have been what you meant Maw, but your equation didn't make it clear.

No, my equation was only for determining IF a creature is CAPABLE of causing damage to the object in question.  I.e. Nearly everyone should be capable of causing damage to a wood door (e.g. BUILDINGSTRENGTH:1), but the rate/speed of destruction is separate.  A Steel door (say BUILDINGSTRENGTH: might require a troll (BUILDINGDESTROYER:4) with a Maul (BUILDINGDESTROYER:4) to cause any damage.  Troll (BUILDINGDESTROYER:4) with Axe (BUILDINGDESTROYER:3) won't do anything but scratch the door.  A Dragon (BUILDINGDESTROYER:10) alone can damage the door.

A goblin (BUILDINGDESTROYER:1), even with a Maul (BUILDINGDESTROYER:4), will just look at the door, look at the magma, look at the door, jump in the magma....


As to time of destruction, I generally agree that constructions should not be one-shot wonders, but by the same token large creatures should be able to destroy smaller constructions without even noticing (e.g. the fantasy view of the dragon's tail sweeping into and collapsing the stone wall of the building as it sweeps around to face <sigh> 'our hero').  Plus the convention of <sigh> 'our hero' shoulder barging the door...

This was my throw away line

Next, each constructed building gains hit point equivalent equal to its base construction, material used and quality of the work.

[Rowanas]

hmm. gotta be said, I prefer my equation for damage. It incorporates the (in)capability of things to destroy doors, while also weighting destruction towards the big things.

A dragon could destroy all of the hp of the door because it just hurts that much that even the damage resistance of the door does next to nothing. A troll would have to beat and batter for a while, and yes, the goblin could bash all day and cause no damage at all because it doesn't go over the damage reduction of the door/wall

[Maw]

hmm. gotta be said, I prefer my equation for damage. It incorporates the (in)capability of things to destroy doors, while also weighting destruction towards the big things.

A dragon could destroy all of the hp of the door because it just hurts that much that even the damage resistance of the door does next to nothing. A troll would have to beat and batter for a while, and yes, the goblin could bash all day and cause no damage at all because it doesn't go over the damage reduction of the door/wall

Ah, I think I understand what you are aiming at:
(creature + strength + weapon) - (mat + quality) = damage done

(mat + quality) represents your 'absorption', incorporating my idea of being incapable of doing any damage in the first place.  Better yet, you incorporate the whole thing in one equation as opposed to my two.   I would go further, and make it (building + mat + quality) though.  The Base Strength of the building (a door, a bridge, a wall, a natural wall(*)) plus the material used in that construction plus the quality of that construction).

Possible Problem
I presume your + weapon means adding the weapon damage?  If so, this could be circling back to the rediculous position of, say 'Kobold + Masterwork Maul beating down that Adamantine gate'.  Need to think about this a bit more.

* I mention this so as to incorporate a miner with a pick mining natural stone - this drives determining how long it takes a miner to mine through a given square (natural wall base plus stone material plus no quality modifier).  What is left behind (i.e. stone) is as currently determined.  Also incorporate treefelling? (tree base plus wood material plus no quality modifier), with wood cutting labour required to leave something behind (log).

[Maw]

Something else to think about:

What happens to accumulated damage that does NOT cause building destruction?

I see two options:

One
Damage is only recorded when building is under assault.  Should assault cease before destruction, this 'temporary damage' is erased.  The next attacker starts from scratch.

This is the implication that the 'Adamantine Gate' defending my front entrance withstood the attack by that dragon before we drove it away/killed it.

Pro - not having to worry about keeping permanent track of damage to buildings.  Memory killer?

Con - no opportunity for multiple assaults (same time or one after the other).  I.e. something else can't finish the job the dragon started.

Two
Damage is permanently recorded.

Pro - allows successive assaults on a weakened structure.

Con - Memory?  Also, what can you then do about your weakened front gate?  Does Toady implement a new labour (repair structure) for a dwarf to repair a weakened structure?  Does it require more materials same as the structure (pity the one with the Adamantine front door).

Alternatively, you must deconstruct the building to recover the source materials, then reconstruct (with attendant quality problems for masterworks etc).

Personally, I would favour Two with deconstruct/reconstruct, but it would be driven by any memory problems that might arise.

[Mephisto]

...
Next, give weapons a BUILDINGDESTROYER tag ...

I was thinking something similar just now. Allow certain body parts to have a tag such as BUILDINGDESTROYER. When the part is lost, the creature can no longer destroy buildings.

One of the ginormous stitched-together baddies from Clive Barker's Jericho comes to mind, one with a big morningstar attached to its arm.

[Fieari]

You guys know that hit points are 100% out in the new version right?  And that you no longer deal generic "damage" but instead inflict "wounds", which are ADDED, not subtracted from a total.  Wounds each have an effect on the target (or are merely aesthetic) and do not otherwise effect each other.  Wounds are only added if the physics of the attack allow for it.

Keep your suggestions in line with this.  Basically, I think it's already in.  All that needs to be added is the means to attack objects like door as if they were creatures.  The rest is already there.

[Rowanas]

That doesn't really change anything. It just means that doors will receive wounds instead of losing hp. The idea still works fine, and in fact it makes damage resistance a necessity, since doors have a certain number of places to be wounded, the mat will alter the wounds taken.

[Kilo24]

...except that doors are a different beast entirely from creatures.  Unless Toady is going to create an indepth door-opening simulator with analysis on hinge damage, I'm not sure that wounds will really apply to doors.  A simple hit point system would probably work best - especially since we have no idea of the dimensions of a door.

When I first saw the idea, I thought the tags would be used to specify a type of material that they could only destroy - like bronze doors for bronze golems, or wood buildings for druids, or somesuch.  It would be used to note a special affinity towards that material, but I couldn't think of many situations that that would be useful in.  I'm mentioning it in case anyone can think of something better for that idea.

Good idea; I'd approve a absorbtion/damage system for doors.  Actually, I'd favor making a new type of door as well - a reinforced door - for the type of door you'd put on the entry hall of your fortress, or into your treasure vaults.  Maybe require a lever to open/close it, and allow it to span multiple tiles.  Higher resistance to damage and more materials required.

[ChairmanPoo]

Ah, I think I understand what you are aiming at:
(creature + strength + weapon) - (mat + quality) = damage done

(mat + quality) represents your 'absorption', incorporating my idea of being incapable of doing any damage in the first place.  Better yet, you incorporate the whole thing in one equation as opposed to my two.   I would go further, and make it (building + mat + quality) though.  The Base Strength of the building (a door, a bridge, a wall, a natural wall(*)) plus the material used in that construction plus the quality of that construction).

Possible Problem
I presume your + weapon means adding the weapon damage?  If so, this could be circling back to the rediculous position of, say 'Kobold + Masterwork Maul beating down that Adamantine gate'.  Need to think about this a bit more.

* I mention this so as to incorporate a miner with a pick mining natural stone - this drives determining how long it takes a miner to mine through a given square (natural wall base plus stone material plus no quality modifier).  What is left behind (i.e. stone) is as currently determined.  Also incorporate treefelling? (tree base plus wood material plus no quality modifier), with wood cutting labour required to leave something behind (log).

I like.

Perhaps to make building destroyer more sensical weaponwise, how about instead of (creature + strength + weapon), it's limited to ( strenght + weapon), and creatures are given realistic strenghts?

Still, I'd like to have independently of this siege weaponry, and limited sapping (more like adding a wall-deconstruct tag to certain creatures)

[Rowanas]

hmm. True, size by itself does not dictate strength.

Size currently doesn't reduce or increase hitting chances when really it should. A huge fuck-off troll is strong, but also a large target, and as such they should be easier to take down before they deal really big damage.

[Granite26]

You guys know that hit points are 100% out in the new version right?  And that you no longer deal generic "damage" but instead inflict "wounds", which are ADDED, not subtracted from a total.  Wounds each have an effect on the target (or are merely aesthetic) and do not otherwise effect each other.  Wounds are only added if the physics of the attack allow for it.

Keep your suggestions in line with this.  Basically, I think it's already in.  All that needs to be added is the means to attack objects like door as if they were creatures.  The rest is already there.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong.  An item will still have hitpoints that are compared to the total damage of the wounds on it.  The difference is that wounds are tracked individually versus just summed up and forgotten.  A dwarf upper arm will still have hit points (divided up by layers, so really it'll be dwarven upper arm musculature that has hitpoints, but still). 

The door will be able to be modeled as two layers... The hinge layer behind a door layer.  The door layer will be very hard, and block a lot of slash damage and absorb a lot of bashing damage.  If you deal enough incremental slash damage, you'll cut through the door layer ('killing' the door).  Alternatively, a single serious concusion could transfer through the door (dealing no damage) and overcome the high DR of the hinges to knock them off in a single blow(Also 'killing' the door).

[Fieari]

No, Toady said HP is out.  Wounds cause effects, but only a wound to the heart or brain causes death.  Tenthousand paper cuts will HURT, and interfere with concentration, but will not kill unless you bleed out.

Some sources:

As a result of tissue layering, the 15 HP per BP system is being more or less dropped to make way for individual wound tracking. Unless you look at the specific descriptions, you'll still have wounded BP lists and so on displayed in pretty much the same way, though. Aside from having more accurate combat text (though I'm not sure if that's coming with this push) and the scars/improved healing/pain management that come from wound tracking, it also means that smaller creatures will be able to cause very slight wounds to large creatures in many cases where they'd do nothing before. A 1 out of 15 guaranteed BP HP drop is too large in many cases (thus the current no-damage chances), but adding a scratch to the skin tissue doesn't have to count for so much. So even if you aren't really hurting the titan, at least you can make little marks on it and bother it or something.

Tendon and ligament damage is done, respect the material sent in for them. You can also get severed motor and sensory nerves in your extremities on occasion when the muscle is (generally severely) damaged. Motor damage is like the current nerve damage in that it stops the part from being used, while sensory damage stops the part from feeling pain but causes problems with rolls (I suppose later it can make movement difficult and ou'll also have to watch out for wounds just from bumping into things, or whatever's appropriate).

[Granite26]

...  I think you are mistaking hitpoints for their standard use...

Things will still have a maximum, numeric amount of damage they can take before they fall apart.  It's just that 'thing' has changed from body part to body part layer.

A thousand paper cuts (.1hp wounds) will flay the skin, create holes into and eventually flay the muscle.  It won't overcome the DR on bone.

It's the same way now, though... you can't hit someone in the arm hard enough to kill them, it just cuts the arm off if you do enough HP damage to it.  It's just that in the future, you will have to do far less damage in one blow (compared to slowly) to ruin the body part (single sword slash cuts through skin, there's a lot more damage left over to go to muscle and bone, whereas a second hit that didn't pierce skin is unlikely to hit the same hole in the skin.