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[Deimos56]

(Searched for building destroyer related posts and didn't find anything like this... here goes nothing.)

As it stands, Random Troll #37 can knock down a series of 50 *Adamantine Doors*, but an entire army of goblins is stopped in their tracks by, say, a xXPlywood doorXx.
I would suggest that the [BUILDING_DESTROYER] variety tags be altered to be based off of the material of the item.
So a goblin could take down a wooden door ([BUILDING_DESTROYER:WOOD]), Trolls could take down...eh, let's go with... bronze and any stones weaker than bronze ([BUILDING_DESTROYER:BRONZE]), and...
...
HFS could probably take down anything weaker than adamantine. The only problem I can see is how to keep people from just putting up adamantine defenses everywhere.

Thoughts?

[Granite26]

Personally, I'd have it be based on unit strength and material strength and get rid of the 'building destroyer' tag altogether, but that's just me.  (Such that a goblin COULD destroy a plywood door, tag or no tag)

[Mephansteras]

It sort of works that way now. BUILDINGDESTROYER:1 can only destroy wooden constructions, while BUILDINGDESTROYER:2 can destroy any material buildings.

I agree that a more robust system would be nice, however.

[Foa]

Personally, I'd have it be based on unit strength and material strength and get rid of the 'building destroyer' tag altogether, but that's just me.  (Such that a goblin COULD destroy a plywood door, tag or no tag)

Weapons can has BuildingDamage tag, and materials has BuildingDamageMultiplier tag, and BuildingDefenseMultiplier tag?
And that is what I was thinking about.

[Hyndis]

HFS could probably take down anything weaker than adamantine. The only problem I can see is how to keep people from just putting up adamantine defenses everywhere.

Thoughts?

Adamantine is rare and extremely valuable?

Sure, if you want to make adamantine doors to your fortress, they should be immune to pretty much everything. But that means you can't have adamantine weapons, or adamantine statues, or adamantine armor...

[Rowanas]

I've posted up on the thread concerning animal genetics, that building destroyer be replaced by a chance to destroy things based on strength/size. A troll naturally has great strength and size, and therefore has a pretty good chance of wrecking any door it attempts to destroy, whereas even a troll would have difficulty smashing through that *adamantine door* you installed. This would also work better because you could have  "safety areas" where dwarves retreat in a siege that are guarded by one or more metal doors as a very hard place to breach while your dwarves make an escape. A legendary adamantine door menacing wit spikes of adamantine should pretty much never fall, and creatures would just keep bashing at it until they couldn't reach the door because of all the dead troll bodies in the way.

[Pilsu]

I'd like to add that you're not going to headbutt through a barred steel door unless you're a titan. Tools or weapons should be required, even for trolls. Muscle strength means nothing if you can't apply it properly so practically this would be a matter of heavily armored troll squads wielding battering ram siege weapons and giant hooks used to pull bridges down

Personally I'd like to see large portcullises, gates and whatnot designed to withstand force for some time. Plain metal doors wouldn't be able to withstand a maul wielding troll more than a few moments. Let's not underestimate the durability of the "weaker" materials guys, a goblin would pretty much need a sledgehammer to get through a stone door, a mace isn't gonna cut it. A two-handed axe would suffice for a wooden door, one handed ones are designed for cleaving meat. Weapons with crit modifiers generally would just dent the door if that

Remote locking needs to be done away with. Barring a door seems more practical. The average wooden or rock door with simplistic rock mechanism based handle wouldn't even have the ability to be locked. Ones equipped with latches wouldn't be able to withstand a goblin elite ramming it for very long and could only be locked from the inside. It would however keep raiders out as they'd be weaker and lightly armed due to the very nature of their attack

[Warlord255]

While I agree that levels of breakability should be based on material strength vs. creature strength, a specific-material based building destroyer tag would be great for some instances.

Examples: Giant termites, rust monsters, lithovores, omnivorous oozes...

[Rowanas]

Well, just add it into the raws that they deal extra damage to iron/stone/wood etc. This building destroyer tag is hopefully just a placeholder anyway, because it definitely isn't the way things should be done. Toady (armok be with him) will get round to it.

[Grendus]

Give each door health and absorption. So an unarmed dwarf could break down a wooden door slowly, but wouldn't even dent a steel door. A goblin could smash a glass portal with no trouble but might take months smashing his mace against a well crafted steel door before it caved (by which time, the future weapon wear and tear would break his mace). Certain creatures, like the oozes mentioned, could have a tag to ignore building absorption, so door hardness wouldn't matter, only health.

[Maw]

As a play on this, and using the BUILDINGDESTROYER tag:

Expand the tag (more than 2 numbers), with each creature receiving a number ranking representing the raw, natural brute strength (and or other abilities) to destroy a construction. (1)

Next, give weapons a BUILDINGDESTROYER tag (if not already, I'm not a RAW expert to say the least).  The combined rating of both creature and weapon (e.g. goblin with axe, troll with maul, dragon with no weapon) represents its destructive rating.

Next, give each construction a BUILDING rating.  Give each construction material (wood, stone, metals, adamantine as the highest) a BUILDING rating.  Combined represents the strength.

Next, each constructed building gains hit point equivalent equal to its base construction, material used and quality of the work.

The equation starts that creature + weapon >= building+material for that attack to even harm the building.  E.g. a goblin + axe (total say 3) won't harm a felsite door (5) no matter how long he batters it.  With a maul (1+4=5) he now could.  He now assaults the door, and over time causes damage reducing hp to nil - destroyed.  Similarly, a bare handed troll (5) can do the same.  And so on.

(1) as a variation, specific creatures could be granted bonuses against specific constructions or materials e.g. SoF gains +10 to wood materials.

[Pilsu]

Maw gets a gold star, that's really good. I was about to say that strength should factor into the equation but soldiers are strong already, the differences would just muddle the whole system up

Doors shouldn't break with just one blow though. One also has to consider the fact that high quality axes are completely out of whack damage-wise so item quality's impact and the effects of unnatural strength resulting from vigorous knitting would need to be balanced if it's simply a matter of HP

[Luke_Prowler]

Oh course, any creature with an IQ higher than a bag of rocks can get past a (unlocked) door

[RavingManiac]

Having creatures knock down a door in one hit is silly except if the creature is really strong. Have the creature damage the door over time.

It is also more dramatic, with the creature hammering at the door and the player trying to get his military there in time.

[Rowanas]

How will this work with the current door system. It's currently impossible to build a minas tirath style door  (40 feet tall and three metres thick) to stop trolls. you would just have to build 3 or 4 doors in a row.

Maws idea works almost perfectly, but materials should provide absorption (props to Grendus), otherwise a goblin with strength of 4 can't hurt a felsite door, whereas a goblin with an axe would sweep it down in a couple blows.

(creature + strength + weapon) - (mat + quality) = damage done.

This may have been what you meant Maw, but your equation didn't make it clear.