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[Albedo]

There was a recent thread titled "seeds" that was hoping to get "world gen seeds" - but it's now it was slipping toward page 3, before I accidentally bumped it.   

Anyway, these were the 2 responses...

I thought you meant strawberry seeds or something. Now I have nothing to contribute

Yeah, I was hoping to learn something new about seeds, but alas...

mmmm... "seeds"... indeed...  well, deep on page 2 doesn't look like "world seeds" is taking off... ok, by request of 2 posters, some thoughts on plant seeds and related topics, targeted at a variety of game experience levels. Don't know how much "new" this will be, but I was struck by a strange mood...


First, let's talk about the planter, your Grower.   Plant stack size is based on the Grower doing the planting, not the harvester.  A better Grower means fewer seeds are needed to produce the same number of plants, and your farm plots can be smaller, saving irrigated space and keeping farmplots closer to your kitchens/stills/etc (which should all be in the same area, and near the Dining Hall - but we digress.)

With the exception of Quarry Bushes (which pad out prepared meals nicely, but usually a food industry is not up to that level in the first couple seasons), plants are mostly for booze, at least to start.  (Later, flours and such - but not at first.) You can trade, hunt or breed for all the food you need, but the 1st caravan won't bring enough booze, and you shouldn't rely on them later.  Booze is the lubricant of a Fortress, and without it will, quite literally, come to a grinding halt.  Plants give you your booze, and Growers give you your plants.

If you count all the tasks, from planting to drinking, Grower is THE single most important skill in DF for multiplying its effect on the labour force.  A Legendary grower saves something like 30 tasks for each stack of plants that are brewed.  Yes, thirty - it's just absurd.  (See the wiki on "grower" for a breakdown.)

By embarking with a proficient Grower and with only 3 of each UG* seed type, you will have more seeds than you need for planting later seasons - the multiplier is huge and the demand low. (If you collect them all and destroy none, 3 seeds -> ~8+ next season -> 20+ and you're set unless your plots are larger than that, which is a bit over-enthusiastic unless you only have 1 or 2 crops.)

(* UnderGround, vs. AG, above ground.  You can only buy UG plants and seeds at embark.  There are 4 UG booze plants (all are also edible, some can be processed into other food-stuffs), plus Quarry Bushes, plus the non-edible Dimple Cups.)

While I cannot emphasize how strongly I, personally, recommend starting with a Proficient Grower, it is also true that an unskilled Grower, if set to "Only Farmers Harvest" and with only 25 tiles or so of crops, will train to Proficient easily within a year. But a Proficient will be Legendary in just over a year, and then you're unstoppable.  (They'll be Professional or so by the time your first migrants are expected to show, and a single unskilled apprentice back-up Grower (to help w/ harvests) won't crush the production during planting.)

On the flip side, if using unskilled growers, a 1:1 production of seed:plant seem to be the standard, and so replanting at the same scale requires that 100% of the plants are either eaten or brewed with no seeds eaten - no cooking, no eating seeds, no bad luck (harvests of "stack = 0"), or it's a losing proposition.  (Smaller plots mean "bad luck" is easier to come across!)

Splitting the diff and putting only ~2-4 ranks into Grower at embark wouldn't be a dealbreaker by any means - ample to avoid "bad luck", and you'll get a few larger stacks for brewing/cooking.  (Some micromanagement is necessary to save the larger stacks for processing and only let the smaller ones be eaten raw.)

For newer players, be aware - eating plants leaves seeds, brewing plants leaves seeds, but cooking plants destroys seeds.  This can be controlled in the z-kitchen menu.  ((I'll also presume to draw your attention to the fact that cooking seeds also destroys seeds - as does eating seeds.  This is usually only a dealbreaker for early fortresses, but it does happen.  Forbid some if you want to be paranoid.)

(And while my rambling refers mainly to food-plants, dye-plants work similarly.  They are separate from plot-size discussions, as they feed your cloth industry (if you have one), not your dwarves.)


So, making seeds into more seeds is the job of a Grower, and now we all understand the trade-offs there.

One seed can produce a single stack size of anywhere from 0-5, with larger stacks being reliably produced only by higher skilled Growers.  (Also larger if fertilized.) 

So, you don't need to start w/ a lot of seeds if you have a Proficient grower.  1 seed will produce a stack of maybe 2-4, on average, so let's call it 2.5 to be on the safe side.  At x5 for booze production, that stack will on average become 12.5 booze.  That means that 3 seeds should become at least 7 plants or 35+ booze, which is more than enough to for 8 thirsty dwarfs for a season.  That times your 4 different UG plants (Pig Tail = ale, D'n Wheat = beer, Sweet Pods = rum, Plump Helmets = wine) is... well, more than enough.  (4x35 = 140 booze/season, which would keep 35 dwarves/season lubricated, plus more from trading.)  And that's only 3 seeds for each of 4 crops, with extremely conservative estimates for stack production.

So, starting with 3 seeds each for your 7 dwarfs is ample, even if you're going to let that grow as the fortress does.  (If you can get your crops in before the end of the 1st Spring, you're in good shape; before end of 1st Summer can be a bit tight if you have a large migrant wave early.)


Some players do fine with a single 5x5 plot of Plump Helmets* (at least for up to 60-100 dwarves, depending on Grower, fertilization, other food sources and Trade), but dwarves like a variety of booze.  Some combination of UG & AG plots that equal around 25-30 tiles (don't count non-food plants) is adequate unless they're going to be trade exports (or you lose your Proficient Grower).  That means 2x2 of each is too big if you have a lot of AG crops; 1x3 seems about right w/ your favorites at 2x2, and possibly some few larger (sun berries, PH's, quarry bushes?).  A strip of adjacent plots, w/ some 1x3 sticking out and seed stockpiles placed in the indents for the 2x2 plots works well for me.

(* If you're going with only 1 or 2 crops, spend the 1 dwarfbuck at the start for 1 seed and a free bag for the other crops.  But you still really don't need much more than 3 seeds each, as they'll multiply quickly enough, depending on your use of raw plants, and you should be bringing about 60 total booze to last until the 1st caravan, unless you have a personal plan that calls for another approach.)

So, 1x3 or 2x2 each seems a good size for most crops to start, unless you're going to use plant products as trade exports. (Same w/ UG size plots.)  25 tiles total of food-plant production is "common wisdom".  (Don't count plants that produce only dye/etc.)

   Sample layout for 5 edible crops w/ 4 seed stockpiles (1 doubled up):
    1 1 2 3 4 5 5
    1 1 2 3 4 5 5
    s s 2 3 4 s  s     

   (At a total footprint of 3x7, this is only 17 tiles of food production, and so while adequate for your 1st 7 this needs either some expanding or some AG food crops to back it up before your fortress grows too big.)

Note that walking on seeds/farm plots/crops doesn't seem to hurt them, which is not true of wild plants or saplings.  Food does not take "wear".


Alternately, a larger number of 1x2 plots lets you easily tweak the total output if one plant type is needed more or less, and easily add just a little more here or there if something is weak.  While this may seem like a hassle at first, the flexibility is huge later in the game, rather than have to tear down a farmplot and/or build a new one, which may require new irrigation.


Seeds are stored in bags - 100/bag max (so getting 6 free bags at embark is a good move, but you won't get any more than that).  And then the bags will be set into barrels.  If your settings are on "mix food" (<o, m>), then 1 barrel can hold all you need - but you can easily customize your food stockpiles to have no barrels at all.  I like to set 1-tile large stockpiles customized to accept only that one seed adjacent to the plots they will serve - makes planting (and visually checking your seed supply) too easy.  (While the bags might get wear from being walked on, the seeds won't suffer - put them in hallways if you have to, and/or use <d, o> to set Restricted traffic on them.)


I like to send a quick, large wave of unskilled Plant Gathering out early in the game, 1st Spring or Summer (once everything is nearly underground but before real trouble shows up), to get a nice selection of AG plants, and then brew those up (or forbid all other foods and let them get eaten first) to get the seeds asap for a Summer planting. 

Cooking with seeds is a great way to get rid of them in later game as they start to reach triple digits each, but turn off all "cook" orders early on (again, in the z-kitchen menu). This is critical with newly acquired plants/seeds (from Plant Gathering or Trade), as otherwise your Cook might decide a SunBerry Seed Roast is just the ticket.  Oh noes.


There.  I've probably mispoken somewhere, so I trust the veterans will come along and rub my nose in it and correct me.  And/or suggest valid alternatives, and invited to do so - a complete discussion was my goal. 

I also have made some strong personal recommendations that are just that - my personal opinion, no apologies.  There are many ways to approach DF, and to have fun (in all its forms) - this is just one solid way to get there from here.

[Jim Groovester]

An excellent essay about a gameplay mechanic that takes far less effort to master than the effort you put into writing it. There weren't any errors, as far as I can tell.

You should make a series of these, and then put them on the wiki as a guide for players who have just finished learning the basics of DF.

"Albedo's Essays on Mundane Gameplay Mechanics and Other Topics"

[AtomicPaperclip]

That's a really great article o.o

I didn't think of putting a specific type of seed by the specific farm.

[Glacial Eidolon]

And thus Urist McFarmer was known in legends as the greatest plant picker, weeder, and planter there ever was. His name would extend for a thousand families, marveling at his courage in gathering sun berries, telling stories about the time the giant dandelion almost got away down a cliff, and his awe-inspiring toil planting rows upon rows of seeds measuring 1x2 in length. We shall know him forever. He shall never be forgotten.

[Albedo]

An excellent essay about a gameplay mechanic that takes far less effort to master than the effort you put into writing it.

It was a mood, what can I say? 

You should make a series of these, and then put them on the wiki as a guide for players who have just finished learning the basics of DF.

"Albedo's Essays on Mundane Gameplay Mechanics and Other Topics"

"Albedo's easy advice made complicated" 

[buzz killington]

As someone that starved with their first fortress, my first successful one has a lot of large farm plots and legendary growers (as well as cooks and brewers).  I am literally filling the mountain with food 

And if your cooks are good at what they do, you wouldn't believe what kind of trade credit that can bring in!  I only wish the nobles would request legendary meals instead of the (non-existent in my map) glass.

[Kulantan]

Grow sweet pods.

Seriously they provide 5x the food of most crops and is worth 4x more than the bushes. On top of this they can be made into booze.

Yes there is a bit of a fuss with saving barrels for processing but it very much worth it in the end.

(btw epic guide, thanks 

[SwiftAusterity]

I dedicate acres for planting, always have a gigantic sun-exposed, wall protected (sometimes glass roofed) plot (like 60x60) and a similarly large underground one.

The problem I generally run into is barrel shortage due to too many plants. My current fort has some 3000 seeds, 5000 plants and only around 1500 prepared meals (with around 900 meat and zero fish [no rivers/brooks]) and currently ZERO booze due to stupid plants >.>

4 carpenters and 2 metalsmiths on repeating barrel duty can't keep up with my Monsanto operation

[Sphalerite]

Seriously they provide 5x the food of most crops and is worth 4x more than the bushes. On top of this they can be made into booze.

And with a decent cook and thresher, farmer's workshop and kitchen, you can make enough dwarven syrup roasts to buy out the entire fall trade convoy in your first year.

[Quietust]

I dedicate acres for planting, always have a gigantic sun-exposed, wall protected (sometimes glass roofed) plot (like 60x60) and a similarly large underground one.

The problem I generally run into is barrel shortage due to too many plants. My current fort has some 3000 seeds, 5000 plants and only around 1500 prepared meals (with around 900 meat and zero fish [no rivers/brooks]) and currently ZERO booze due to stupid plants >.>

4 carpenters and 2 metalsmiths on repeating barrel duty can't keep up with my Monsanto operation

You might want to try reserving a quantity of empty barrels for holding booze (in the Stock[p]ile menu, using / and * to decrease/increase) so they won't be immediately filled with food.

Alternatively, you could, you know, grow less food. With two legendary planters, eight 5x5 farm plots (4 underground, 4 above ground with a few tiles missing due to stone) are more than enough to keep a 240-strong fortress well fed and boozed, even with crops that aren't edible (dyes) or require cooking (quarry bushes).

[SwiftAusterity]

I let fields fallow 3 seasons at this point. I'm running civ forge, I want at least one plot per plant type. (which is a LOT of plots)

The barrel trick only goes so far, the idiots keep drinking the booze and appropriating the barrels more quickly than someone can get to them to move to the right spot

I find it amusing to try and keep up barrel production. Gives me an excuse to cheese off the elves too by needing MOAR TREES all the time.

[Albedo]

And with a decent cook and thresher, farmer's workshop and kitchen, you can make enough dwarven syrup roasts to buy out the entire fall trade convoy in your first year.

Interesting tactic.  How do you move the Prepared Meals to keep them from rotting, and keep your Kitchen(s) from getting cluttered up?  I find those to be the bottlenecks for any prepared food Trade approach.

[betamax]

This is rather interesting, but seems like a complex system. Admittedly, mine is redundant and produces far too much food at first, but on the other hand my main trade good is meals. At embark, I take 25 each of plump helmet seeds, sweet pod seeds, pig tail seeds, dimple cup seeds and rock nuts. I make two 5x5 plots, one which always grows plump helmets, one which grows the other four, rotating over the seasons. This way, I have a variety of booze, as well as cloth and dye, and always have plump helmets just in case something goes terribly wrong. Still, your method looks a lot more adaptable to shortages/surplus/odd demands. I've never really experimented with above-ground plants before.

[Jeff Carr]

Interesting tactic.  How do you move the Prepared Meals to keep them from rotting, and keep your Kitchen(s) from getting cluttered up?  I find those to be the bottlenecks for any prepared food Trade approach.

I do the same with Dwarven Syrup Roasts, most of the time I never end up trading anything other than Roasts and goblin clothing, and can buy out every caravan.  The way I keep my prepared food from rotting is to put the kitchen right in the center of my main stairways, and I have almost every single dwarf set to haul food.  The only exceptions being my dedicated miner and dedicated masons. 

I also run about a 3-2 hauler to everything else ratio once I have about 30 dwarves.  Keeps my fortress neat and all my stone stacked up nicely. 

[Albedo]

<nods>

I'll try that my next fortress.  Right now I trade stonecrafts, which are uninspiring if still profitable - but if I can have my idle kitchens do double duty, so much the better. If I do put a wiki article up, I'll add your tactic either way - it clearly works for you!    


beta-
AG plants work the same - the trick is doing some quick Foraging to gather samples and then brewing those for the seeds (or wait for Trading).

25 seeds each is huge to start, unless you have a need for 25 stacks your first harvest.  Maybe try cutting those to 8-10 each, see how it works in the long run?  Unless you're losing seeds (or not processing the plants), or don't have a skilled Grower, you'll have ~25 seeds for the next season no prob, and save 30 pts on your embark screen.  Buy some cheap leather for bags for the AG crop seeds. 

You could also try cutting those down to 4x4 plots - I bet you'll still have plenty, at least until your fortress tops 100 dwarves.