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Author Topic: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.  (Read 11711 times)

Jurph

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D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« on: July 13, 2009, 12:41:37 pm »

On our summer vacation this August, my wife and I have been invited to bring a pair of level 1 characters1 to the beach house where we'll all (16ish of us) be hanging out. A close friend has agreed to DM a game for one or more parties of about five people each. I haven't touched a Player's Handbook since AD&D 2nd Edition and I'm out of practice, so I grabbed some free monster cards online and drew up a combat encounter (The Temple of McGuffin) for me and my wife to practice with. We muddled through, knocked around a few lvl1 kobolds and goblins, and learned a lot... but the PHB is lacking in examples for a lot of the situations we ran across. So, without further ado:

1) When my paladin uses an at-will power like Holy Strike as a minor action, I am supposed to roll Cha vs. Reflex. My Charisma is high (+3 modifier) but I am striking with my warhammer. As a dwarf with weapon training and proficiency (and a Str bonus!) I am already rolling +5 to hit. Do I take another +3 on my roll to hit because I'm using a power?

2) Let's suppose that I do get the bonus, and I'm rolling +8 to hit against a kobold with Reflex 11... and I roll a 3. 3+8 = 11, so I... tie. Does a tie go to the attacker, the defender, or the player character?

3) We were really getting beaten up, but I am a healer and should be able to fix that. When I got mobbed by the enemy, and my wife's wizard stood several squares away plinking them with magic missile and other skills, how was I supposed to get distance between me and the mob in order to safely expend a healing surge? Yes, I'm a Dwarf and a Paladin -- I can spend it as a minor action. Do I just declare that I've gained back 7hp right at the start of my turn?

4) When a power calls for me to tally 2[W] damage, and my base damage is 1d10+5, am I doing 2d10+5 or 2d10+10?

Thanks in advance. I'm sure I'll come up with some more...


Footnote 1: My character is named Urist Ironblood.  He is a dwarven Paladin, and comes from the mountainhome of Boatmurdered.
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Sowelu

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 12:56:13 pm »

1) When my paladin uses an at-will power like Holy Strike as a minor action, I am supposed to roll Cha vs. Reflex. My Charisma is high (+3 modifier) but I am striking with my warhammer. As a dwarf with weapon training and proficiency (and a Str bonus!) I am already rolling +5 to hit. Do I take another +3 on my roll to hit because I'm using a power?
Okay, here's my understanding, but I haven't played much 4e:  You don't get all those bonuses.  When you roll Cha vs. Reflex, you don't add strength mods at all.  You use Cha INSTEAD of Str.  But I think you -do- still add your weapon training and proficiency.

2) Let's suppose that I do get the bonus, and I'm rolling +8 to hit against a kobold with Reflex 11... and I roll a 3. 3+8 = 11, so I... tie. Does a tie go to the attacker, the defender, or the player character?
Ties always go to whoever rolled the dice.  If you roll a value that hits the target number or higher, you win.

3) We were really getting beaten up, but I am a healer and should be able to fix that. When I got mobbed by the enemy, and my wife's wizard stood several squares away plinking them with magic missile and other skills, how was I supposed to get distance between me and the mob in order to safely expend a healing surge? Yes, I'm a Dwarf and a Paladin -- I can spend it as a minor action. Do I just declare that I've gained back 7hp right at the start of my turn?
Healing surges are supposed to have many different ways to use, but not entirely free.  I'll have to look that up when I get home to know what paladins do that lets them use a healing surge as a minor action--I'm guessing 'lay on hands, target can use a healing surge'--but I'm pretty sure that yeah, it works like that.

4) When a power calls for me to tally 2[W] damage, and my base damage is 1d10+5, am I doing 2d10+5 or 2d10+10?
Make sure you know what your base damage really is.  Think of that [W] as standing for [Weapon], because I think it does.  If you have a +2 sword that does 1d8+2, and then you have a strength modifier that gives you +3 on a basic attack, I *THINK* 2[W] should do (1d8+2) + (1d8+2) + (3).

I need to look this stuff up again D:
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kutulu

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 01:50:55 pm »

Before I get going, I would strongly recommend you go to www.dndinsider.com and grab their Character Builder tool.  It's free up through 3rd level, and it will figure out all of the math and rules combinations involved in selecting powers, equipment, etc.  It then generates perhaps the greatest invention in DND history: Power Cards, with all your stats, equipment, bonuses, etc, and spit out the end result as a simple "roll this for attack, this for damage" playing-card sized thing.  They will seriously spoil you.

Anyway, on to your questions:

1) When my paladin uses an at-will power like Holy Strike as a minor action, I am supposed to roll Cha vs. Reflex. My Charisma is high (+3 modifier) but I am striking with my warhammer. As a dwarf with weapon training and proficiency (and a Str bonus!) I am already rolling +5 to hit. Do I take another +3 on my roll to hit because I'm using a power?

No, you're still only going to get a +5 to hit.  In this case, your +5 is a combination of two things: your weapon proficiency, which is a +2 for the warhammer, and your Str bonus, which I assume is +3.  Your proficiency applies to any attack rolls you make, so you will always get that +2 to hit, but your Str bonus only applies in two cases: A basic melee attack, or when a power says it's Str vs. [defense].  Since you're rolling Cha vs. Reflex, you will get +2 proficiency +3 Cha modifier, for +5.

(Quick question: How are you getting to use a standard action like Holy Strike as a minor?  Is that a feat you found somewhere?)

2) Let's suppose that I do get the bonus, and I'm rolling +8 to hit against a kobold with Reflex 11... and I roll a 3. 3+8 = 11, so I... tie. Does a tie go to the attacker, the defender, or the player character?

That's an easy one: a tie on a roll is always success.  If its an attack roll, the attack hits.  If its a skill check, the skill succeeds.  Etc.  Works the same for PCs, NPCs, and monsters.

3) We were really getting beaten up, but I am a healer and should be able to fix that. When I got mobbed by the enemy, and my wife's wizard stood several squares away plinking them with magic missile and other skills, how was I supposed to get distance between me and the mob in order to safely expend a healing surge? Yes, I'm a Dwarf and a Paladin -- I can spend it as a minor action. Do I just declare that I've gained back 7hp right at the start of my turn?

No, in technical game terms, you would declare that you were using Second Wind as a minor action at any time after the start of your turn.  This is a subtle but important point: "Start of my turn" is a specific period of time that occurs before you are allowed to do anything, and is the point where most ongoing effects trigger.  So, for example, if you're taking ongoing fire damage, you have to take the damage before you can use your Second Wind.

Other then that, you can use your three actions at any time during your turn, in any order: 1 Standard, 1 Move, and 1 Minor.  So you could attack, then move back, then use your Second Wind to spend a healing surge and get HP back.  Or you could use Second Wind first, then move, then attack.  Or whatever.

Also, because it seems you (like almost every other first-time player) may be confused by the horribly confusing healing rules: You do not get to spend healing surges whenever you want.  You have a power called Second Wind that lets you spend one healing surge at your discretion, but once you've used that power, you cannot use it again that encounter.  Instead you'd need to use other healing powers from your paladin's power list which also spend healing surges.  The surge counter is basically an upper limit on how much healing your character can do in any one day, regardless of who does it.

4) When a power calls for me to tally 2[W] damage, and my base damage is 1d10+5, am I doing 2d10+5 or 2d10+10?

Your [W] damage is the damage from the PHB for that weapon type, which does not include any bonuses, just the damage dice.  For a basic melee attack, you get to add your Str modifier in to the damage roll, so your base 1d10+5 is 1d10 ([W]), + 3 (Str), + 2 (your Training feat).  2[W] would be 2d10, but because you have the Training feat, you can automatically add +2 to whatever damage rolls you make, so 2[W] is 2d10+2, 5[W] is 5d10+2, etc.  Then you add on any ability modifier the power calls for.

Fun Fact:  Very few of the low-level paladin powers require you to be holding your Holy Symbol.  You can choose instead to wield your warhammer two-handed, which gives your a +1 to your damage rolls automatically.  If you need to use a power that has the "Implement" keyword (e.g. On Pain of Death), it's only a minor action to swap weapons, which you can do before you use your power.

--K
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Jurph

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 02:38:31 pm »

(Quick question: How are you getting to use a standard action like Holy Strike as a minor?  Is that a feat you found somewhere?)

No, it was just a mistake on my part.  I have power cards but they aren't generated by DND Insider's tool.  I'm going to look into that tool and see if I can use it to clear up confusion.

Quote
No, in technical game terms, you would declare that you were using Second Wind as a minor action at any time after the start of your turn.  This is a subtle but important point: "Start of my turn" is a specific period of time that occurs before you are allowed to do anything, and is the point where most ongoing effects trigger.  So, for example, if you're taking ongoing fire damage, you have to take the damage before you can use your Second Wind.

Other then that, you can use your three actions at any time during your turn, in any order: 1 Standard, 1 Move, and 1 Minor.  So you could attack, then move back, then use your Second Wind to spend a healing surge and get HP back.  Or you could use Second Wind first, then move, then attack.  Or whatever.

Also, because it seems you (like almost every other first-time player) may be confused by the horribly confusing healing rules: You do not get to spend healing surges whenever you want.  You have a power called Second Wind that lets you spend one healing surge at your discretion, but once you've used that power, you cannot use it again that encounter.  Instead you'd need to use other healing powers from your paladin's power list which also spend healing surges.  The surge counter is basically an upper limit on how much healing your character can do in any one day, regardless of who does it.

So, I mis-stated my question, but the answer is what I thought it was.  Second Wind is a minor action (for me) and I can also Lay On Hands as a minor.  This means (I think!) that theoretically I can do two healing surges on myself in a single combat and still have time for a standard action.

Quote
Fun Fact:  Very few of the low-level paladin powers require you to be holding your Holy Symbol.  You can choose instead to wield your warhammer two-handed, which gives your a +1 to your damage rolls automatically.  If you need to use a power that has the "Implement" keyword (e.g. On Pain of Death), it's only a minor action to swap weapons, which you can do before you use your power.


That's okay - my paladin doesn't carry a shield, and wields his hammer two-handed already.  I'm hoping someone will ask me before we get into a fight why I don't carry a shield.  The real reason is that with my healing powers I don't really need one, so a point of additional damage on each hit is worth it for me.  The in-character reason?  "Moradin will provide."  Which is to say, it was expensive to buy one at the outset, so I'm planning to steal a shield from the first dude I kill.
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Sowelu

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 02:44:59 pm »

So, I mis-stated my question, but the answer is what I thought it was.  Second Wind is a minor action (for me) and I can also Lay On Hands as a minor.  This means (I think!) that theoretically I can do two healing surges on myself in a single combat and still have time for a standard action.

That sounds right to me!  That's right, IIRC dwarves do get Second Wind as a minor.  So yeah, you convert your move action down to a minor, and you're golden.  Pretty awesome.  1/2 your max HP healing in one round, plus the AC bonuses from Second Wind, plus bashing someone in the face...nice!
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Jurph

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 08:34:57 am »

Okay, so after examining the Temple of the McGuffin, I realized we really weren't doing anything about Opportunity Attacks.  My DM and I talked a little and he thinks (but hasn't verified) that healing when standing next to an enemy provokes an opportunity attack.  My wife's character, a caster, was definitely setting herself up for opportunity attacks by casting at the main body of enemies despite being engaged by a kobold.  We also didn't make any use of "shift" as an action, and it seems like that's the best way to avoid opportunity attacks.  Is this true?  I'd like to hear Sowelu and kutulu (or any of the rest of 'lu) chime in on the basics of how this works.  Are there formations you want to avoid?  Is shifting really all that and a bag of chips?

Also: grabbing and grappling seem like a waste to me.  With a STR of 16 I grapple at +3.  Does it make sense for me to grapple an enemy brute as a standard action (and re-establish the grapple each turn as a minor) so that I can beat him senseless with my hammer?  He gets a -2 to defense for the duration which opens up another two faces of the d20.  If I'm rolling STR (+3) vs. REF (14), my chance to hit goes from 55% to 65%, which seems like a good deal... but I lose a turn that I could be beating him, and I lose a point of damage from not being able to swing two-handed.  Sketching it out on the back of a (MS Excel) napkin, I can't see anywhere that the curve is positive for me -- the increased hit probability doesn't do enough to offset the damage drop and the missed turn.  Is there something I'm not understanding?  Perhaps some enemy which is much easier to handle when it's immobilized?
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Jakkarra

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 11:26:09 am »

i must suggest that you cast off the horribly broken 4th edition.

3.5 is a much better system.

kutulu

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 01:00:08 pm »

Okay, so after examining the Temple of the McGuffin, I realized we really weren't doing anything about Opportunity Attacks.  My DM and I talked a little and he thinks (but hasn't verified) that healing when standing next to an enemy provokes an opportunity attack.  My wife's character, a caster, was definitely setting herself up for opportunity attacks by casting at the main body of enemies despite being engaged by a kobold.  We also didn't make any use of "shift" as an action, and it seems like that's the best way to avoid opportunity attacks.

Healing per se does not provoke an attack of opportunity, for example, Second Wind will not.  Your wife's spellcasting most likely will, depending on the target type of the spell.  What provokes attacks of opportunity are doing any of the following while you're directly adjacent to an enemy:
  • Making a ranged attack
  • Using a power with an "Area Burst" or "Area Blast" target
  • Moving (not shifting) from your starting position

Many of the cleric healing spells are "Close Burst" powers, and Lay On Hands is a "Touch" power, and neither of those things provoke an attack of opportunity.  And yes, shifting is a key skill to get good at; Rogues have a bunch of power who's main purpose is to let them shift more than 1 square at a time.

Also: grabbing and grappling seem like a waste to me.

From what I know of the rules, I tend to agree.  Grabbing your opponent doesn't do anything for you except keep them from moving and give you more control over where they are (e.g. you can drag them around).  They are immobilized but not restrained so you don't get any bonuses to attack.  Honestly, the only time I've ever seen grabs happen in the games I run is when Cave Trolls grab my players and use them to beat each other to death.
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Sowelu

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 02:41:15 pm »

Kutulu has it right I'm pretty sure.

i must suggest that you cast off the horribly broken 4th edition.

3.5 is a much better system.

4.0 just goes back to D&D's Chainmail roots.  It's wargamey.  That's okay.  3.5 is okay too.
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Neonivek

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 02:44:54 pm »

Quote
must suggest that you cast off the horribly broken 4th edition.

3.5 is a much better system

Ehh they are both just as broken. (actually 3.5 is more broken but is more well known so people catch it before it happens. I mean SURE a specific build of a Mage in 4.0 effectively kills you with one hit, then again normal mages in 3.5 can do that with spells like Ropetrick and Scry)

The difference is that I don't need to be a Mathmatician to be good at 4th edition, which is always a plus and the only reason I never go back to 3.5, I simply don't have the ability to calculate ability scores and feats to the nth level and powergame my character to oblivion.

Actual conversations on how to make an effective character in 3.5 boil down to Powergaming it really does... Not "You probably need this or this" NO it is intricate level by level calculations that I can't repeat because it involved a lot of multiclassing and specific feats from at least ten different books.

Though I really don't want this to boil down to a fight all I am saying is that 4.0 is bashed far more then it deserves to be. The only reason I even really care is because I use OpenRPG and all they play is Dungeons and Dragons 3.5. 3.5 is good it just isn't for me and if there wasn't such a counter push to 4.0 maybe I would see more games.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 02:51:11 pm by Neonivek »
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E. Albright

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 02:57:19 pm »

4.0 just goes back to D&D's Chainmail roots.  It's wargamey.  That's okay.  3.5 is okay too.

Can't really agree with this. 4.0 is not at all wargamey. It's a Minimally Multiplayer Offline RPG. It's intended to appeal to people who cut their teeth on WoW and the like. The problem with it is not that it's broken so much as it's just (IMNPHO) an abomination by design. It tries to be a pen and paper MMO, and to my eye it suceeds - but that's not a good thing.
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Neonivek

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 03:23:51 pm »

Can you be less Vague Ebright?

I've heard it was World of Warcraft the RPG many times as well but they never really go further.

No one ever said it tries to be an MMO though, that is new. Though I guess it is a natural extension of people saying it is WoW.
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E. Albright

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 04:16:49 pm »

It's the feel of the mechanics. You have classes broken down into standard MMO roles (tank/defender, DPS/striker, CC-AoE/controller, healer-buffer/leader). You have everything broken down into powers for every class - a fighter isn't just someone who fights well, it's someone who fights and has combat powers (on arbitrary cooldowns - at-will, encounter, and daily) to that effect; a wizard doesn't learn spells, they have spell powers - and a player "specs into" certain powers, and can respec when they level if they so chose. Defenders place "marks" on their target to mimic MMO threat mechanics and draw a bright line between tank and DPS classes. Generic, homogenized progression table. Minions/trash mobs. Etc.

If I were to dig through the rules, I could probably find some more examples of what left me with that overwhelming impression, but it can be summed up as trying to duplicate the MMO playstyle (and mechanics) with paper and dice. An MMO based on 4e wouldn't adapt the rules for computer play, it'd implement them.
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Neonivek

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 04:44:45 pm »

You can't make a MMO using 4.0 rules, you would still have to adapt them.

Also Respecing was invented in 3.0 the difference is that it doesn't come with heapen bowls of penelties in 4.0.
-The rules if I remember correctly is a lot of exp and gold to respec in 3.0 and 3.5. The rules were total rubbish and that is why no one used them.

4.0 respec rules should be included in 3.5

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You have everything broken down into powers for every class


That is a HUGE plus to everyone but spell cast focused classes. (Wizards, Sorcerers, and stuff) Then again the At-Wills may also be a plus. Wizards tend to be horrible to play once you run out of spells and the fact that they will always have spells is a plus. Hmm Ill have to think about this.

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Defenders place "marks" on their target to mimic MMO threat mechanics

No that isn't what Marks are. Marks are basically a template of effects that require you to set someone as a target first. A lot of Marks also serve as ways to persuade enemies to act a certain way by including effects that have conditions (Which couldn't be done in MMOs).

Quote
I could probably find some more examples of what left me with that overwhelming impression

Naw I am sure you could. From the lack of Instant Kill effects, to no longer disarming someone to rolls a 1, and probably healing surges as well.

Don't get my counters mistaken (as you were giving an oppinion) I see where your comming from. I just don't understand the extreme opposition. Have you played a 4.0 game with the intent of enjoying yourself?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 04:50:51 pm by Neonivek »
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Jakkarra

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Re: D&D 4e newbie has general questions.
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 04:55:18 pm »

there IS an MMO with DND 3.5 ruleset Y'know.

people never believe me whn i tell 'em though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_Online:_Stormreach

/Sigh
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