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Author Topic: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress  (Read 10011 times)

Soralin

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Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« on: July 12, 2009, 07:41:07 pm »

As it is, right now, DF has a major flaw in it, in that there are quite a few simple easy ways of completely sealing off a fortress and protecting it from attack.  Most of these have no counter, or of those that can be breached, the enemies that can breach them are often exceedingly rare.  Right now this is one of the largest factors marring combat and making DF far too easy.  There have been threads on various subjects like tunneling and so on before, but I aim for this thread to have a more comprehensive goal, to find every way of making a fortress impenetrable, and figuring out how to fix each of them.

So, to start this process:

Problem: Doors/Hatches
Description:  Ahh, the simple door, a slab of rock, a block of wood, a chunk of metal menacing with spikes of cat leather.  Lets dwarves go where you want them to, and when locked, prevents all but extremely rare enemies from entering your fortress.  Ambushes may make it through one set of doors, but a simple airlock design with a pet between will keep them from getting through a second set.  They can be locked anywhere at any time, even if there's no dwarves around, and when they are nearly impenetrable.
Solutions:  Make doors destroyable.  Not just by specific enemies, but by anyone.  Make it take some time, building destroyer shouldn't be the only one to be able to knock down doors, they should just be able to do it a bit faster.  Treat buildings more like creatures, do damage to them, wear them down, and eventually you can smash through them.  A set of steel doors should provide better protection then something made out of wood.
Ambushers can sneak up on your fortress, but can be easily detected and doors can be locked.  Something which could help make them more difficult is making it so a door must be locked and barred by a dwarf, rather than locking itself.

Problem: Walls
Description:  The standard of any above-ground fortress or fortification, a wall will keep out anything you want kept out, with no exceptions, indefinitely.  They may have weaker points to them, such as doors, or bridges, or open ceilings, but they don't have to.  You can simply make a solid wall all the way around, perhaps tear it down and rebuild it if you want to let anything in or out.  Or for an underground fortress, a single wall between the inside and the outside can provide an absolute defense.
Solutions:  Same as for doors largely, let walls and constructions be destroyed.  Siege weapons help, but give a group of goblins some time, and perhaps some clubs or picks, and they should be able to take down or deconstruct a wall eventually.  There are other solutions that deal with this partially, flying enemies could go over them, but you can always build walls above, tunneling enemies could go under them, but you can always build walls below.  Those are nice traits to provide a bit more challenge in building a fortress, but in the end, to break an impenetrable fortress, you're going to have to deal with the wall directly.

Problem: Channels
Description: A hole in the ground.  Simple, fast to make, but very effective.  Nothing that moves on land or sea can cross it, only those that can fly can breach it.  A channel between you and the outside world will keep you protected from nearly anything, certainly from sieges and the like.  They commonly can have bridges over them, but it's not required, they may often be filled with water or magma, but that doesn't make them any more impenetrable then they are already.
Solutions:  Intelligent enemies could build floors across them.  Those without bridge building skills could find other methods, fly over them, climb out of them, dig ramps into adjacent squares, build staircases from inside them, etc.  Some of these (any that require something to be down in the pit) may be limited by how well a creature can deal with water or magma.  Solutions to dealing with channels should keep in mind that there will often also be a bridge or a wall or such on the other side that must be dealt with, and solutions should be compatible with that.  Channels may also span several levels and the fortress may be above or below the level that the attacking side is on.

Problem: Bridges
Description:  A nearly impenetrable obstacle when raised (similar to a door), a path across a channel when lowered.  Bridges have many numerous ways of assisting in making a fortress impenetrable.  They can block an army when raised, and smash it when lowered, they can control access over a channel, and drop attacking forces into pits.
Solutions:  There needs to be a number of solutions for bridges, given the variety of ways they can be used.  When raised and used as a simple wall, it should be possible to destroy them, just as with doors.  If there's a channel in the way that can first be dealt with, or it could also be possible to do something like grab the gate with grappling hooks and force it down.  To prevent an army from simply being dropped repeatedly into a pit, bridges could be treated more like doors, where you can't use them once an enemy has taken control of them.  Anchored down so they can't raise or retract.  As for smashing things with them, that might still be possible, but should at the very least damage a bridge to be used in such a way, if not destroy it depending on what's being crushed.

Problem: Bars/Floodgates/Grates
Description:  More standard stuff, things that can be dropped into place or removed.
Solution:  As with before, anything that can be placed into someone's path should be able to be potentially destroyed.  Grates have an added factor though that they can be removed and drop people down into pits.  Some of the solutions of bridges could work here, or the spaces they occupy floored over like channels.

Problem: Water/Lava
Description:  Liquid stuff, you can try to smash your way through it, but it won't be very effective.  Useful in drowning or burning armies, could be used to push enemies over ledges.
Solutions:  There's not a lot here that I can think of, floodgates could be smashed down if they drop into place, making it hard for repeat use of a drowning trap.  Although drowning traps that blocked flow of water simply by height and walls, such as one where the invading army had to descend a few levels into to get into your fortress, would be hard to prevent repeat usage.  Anchoring bridges in place can make it hard to drop sieges into it.  Lava falling from above through grates would be hard to stop though, and entrances covered by either of them would be very difficult to get into.  Enemies which can't be drowned, or which are immune to high temperatures could make it past these obstacles.  A bunch of water pushing enemies off a cliff though would be very hard for anyone to get through, and I can't really see any good solutions for it.  Otherwise, if the AI is good enough, and there are other choices available, they might be able to find (or make)some way around them, even if it took longer.

Problem: Natural walls/Obsidian
Description:  The main defense of underground fortresses, it can block off large sections and funnel enemies through a few narrow points.  Normally, there has to be a way through it, as the dwarves had to get down there in the first place.  However, with some lava and water available, A fortress can seal itself off entirely, behind natural walls.  Other then that, it can be used to block access to all but another path which is virtually impenetrable (like the immersed entrance above).
Solutions:  At this point, there's no way that I can see forward other than tunneling enemies, certainly an obsidian capped underground fortress has no other entrance, and to get around other impenetrable obstacles, this may be one of the only options available.

Problem: Traps
Description:  1000 spinning blades of death, or a single wooden cage trap.  There's little more effective at killing or capturing enemies then these.  Enough of these can take down virtually anything, and they're often very simple to build.  This isn't the standard impenetrable defense, because it is possible to get through, but I thought I'd include it anyway because virtually anything without [trapavoid] can be easily taken down or captured by traps.  Even those that do have it can be stopped by them under certain conditions (cave-ins)
Solutions:  Limit traps' effectiveness, put a single weapon in a weapon trap, make it so traps can be disarmed or discovered.  If someone in a siege get caught in a cage trap, have their companions stop and break them out.  Megabeasts either shouldn't be able to be caged at all, or if they are, should break themselves out of any cage given a bit of time, might also apply to other enemies as well.

That's about all that comes to mind at the moment.  As it is, a fortress can be made impenetrable, or nearly so, with nearly any one of these individually.  If anyone can think of any more to add it would be helpful, as well as any other possible solutions to these defenses.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 08:25:17 pm »

In WWI, tanks were often equipped with bundles of wood called fascines. These would be dropped from the front of the tank into a trench, then another tank would drop another bundle on top of it, then when the trench was full they'd simply drive over it. A similar tactic would work fro channels, with gobs dropping junk into a section to fill it.
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Warlord255

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 12:00:00 am »

I think there's been a massive, massive thread on this.

Suffice to say, many ideas are circulating on improving sieges, and the update after this one may very well take a crack at implementing some of them.
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Archaalen

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 12:23:37 am »

Perhaps ladders could be used to climb over walls by more enterprising groups of goblins?  They could also concievably be laid across narrower channels or pits.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 12:34:23 am »

Quote
Suffice to say, many ideas are circulating on improving sieges, and the update after this one may very well take a crack at implementing some of them.
:-[
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Soralin

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 03:14:39 am »

I think there's been a massive, massive thread on this.

Suffice to say, many ideas are circulating on improving sieges, and the update after this one may very well take a crack at implementing some of them.
True, but I mainly wanted to come at the problem from the other direction.  Instead of asking how we can improve sieges and various attacks going at it piecemeal, look at it the other way around: How can we break sieges?  What are all of the ways that we can stop a siege or an attack in it's tracks without any way around it, and then figure out ways to try and solve them.  Have an overall goal of preventing attacks from being blocked behind impenetrable defenses, and then try to seek out and find everything that currently prevents that goal.  So that defenses and sieges and various attacks can be worked on with that plan in mind, and with a list of everything that needs to be dealt with to achieve that.

Even more then finding solutions, I'd want this thread to find problems, a comprehensive list of everything that needs to be dealt with to archive the goal of fortresses never being truly or easily impenetrable, could be a useful thing.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 03:24:28 am by Soralin »
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LordDemon

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 04:10:45 am »

We also should remember that warfare in middleages and often in fantasy settings was very different. Castles were rarely stormed like in LoTR, and even in those cases the invaders had huge superiority of numbers and were willing to take enormous casualties. Invading any structure half or completely under ground would be even worse, since the space is more controlled by choke points.

Castles were most often captured by long sieges, which could last for years, and often were solved by the castle running out of water and/or food. This is prety undoable in Dwarf fortress, because of the ease of farming (in reality the amount of space farms require to feed the fortress would not easily fit within the castle walls) and underground rivers that provide endless water.
If the invaders do lay siege, it will obstruct the use of outer areas for farming, tree logging and harvesting, but most often the essential areas wil be placed inside fortifications too. The building of walls is pretty easy in DF compared to reality.

But if siegers would be willing to lay siege for few years on the entries and exits of the fortress, it would actually be much worse then goblins rushing into the traps. Of course players could also make the siegers areas trapped.

But things like portable ladders (allow passing up to 1 wide area ditch or climbing one level would be a good aid, specially if they can be combined (ladders can be made so they lock on to other ladders to make longer ones). This would allow invaders climb walls and pass the moats. They could even take ladders with them after the last member of their squad has passed, and use them again later.
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Pilsu

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 08:55:54 am »

There's pretty much no chance you're getting through anything beyond a wooden door without proper tools. Manual locking would help, yes

I'd like to see troll squad leaders come equipped with giant chains with a hook in the end that could force bridges open

I already made a thread about traps and posted ideas to make goblins formidable opponents while curbing your own somewhat. Legendary should not be the baseline

Here's a radical idea, how about you make the sieges, wait for it, actually siege you. Enemies just charging inside is not a fucking siege. Sure you can produce food inside but you could tie attrition to medicine instead, only available topside. If you stockpile massive quantities of that, well, you deserve to be able to outlast a siege. That's how it was done back in the day. That's what a siege is. Besides, losing access to caravans for years would be annoying enough to make most players oust the siege in a timely manner. If they'd rather not, it's a perfectly valid strategy. Letting the goblins mull about would probably make them overhunt the local wildlife and loot everything you have left outside


At the end of the day, a well designed underground fortress in a perfect locale is completely impenetrable no matter what you do. Get used to it
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 08:58:49 am by Pilsu »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 11:21:36 am »

One thing I do want is [BUILDING_DESTROYER: 3], able to tear down artificial walls (not too fast, though). This and/or goblin siege engines.

As for moats, just make goblin engineers able to build floors over them.

Weapon traps I am not too concerned about, maybe just make them more fail-prone, for wholly-underground fortresses with one entrance full of traps, but in other instances I think that building-destroyer 3s would be able to work a way around those, and with a higher failure rate goblin man-waves would jam them early on.

I think this would encourage keeping anti-siege weapons around (magma showers, creative traps, etc...
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Hyndis

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 02:00:37 pm »

One of the things I brought up in an earlier thread was the requirement to have a clear path to the outside world.

If there is no clear path, such that a dwarf can path to the edge of the map, then the dwarf would have an unhappy thought. Alternatively, if there is no clear path then the dwarf will be unable to receive any positive thoughts, and so all the little negative things will eventually drive him mad if the fortress is under siege for too long.

"Urist McDwarf has been worried about the siege lately."

If you just leave the doors locked a siege will hang around for almost a year before getting bored and leaving. This is a long enough time where enough negative thoughts would pile up that you could have a serious problem on your hand if you just hide behind walls and bridges the entire time.

So this encourages the player to leave an open path, allowing the invaders at least a fighting chance.

Sure, sure, the path could be a twisting, winding path through 300 adamantine spike traps, guarded by watch towers full of crossbows, and through a magma fall...but hey, at least they have a chance:D
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Silverionmox

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 02:04:47 pm »

Invaders could also opt to build a dam a little downstream, if a fortress proves to be inaccessible, to flood the valley.
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Pilsu

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 02:23:21 pm »

Removing happy thoughts seems extreme, especially considering they're just stranded in a home they probably wouldn't leave anyway. They could certainly get unhappy thoughts over time depending on personality

Eventually we might require ventilation, poorly designed systems would be vulnerable to getting flooded with smoke
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Aldaris

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 03:00:14 pm »

Removing happy thoughts seems extreme, especially considering they're just stranded in a home they probably wouldn't leave anyway. They could certainly get unhappy thoughts over time depending on personality

Eventually we might require ventilation, poorly designed systems would be vulnerable to getting flooded with smoke

Hostiles diverting surface water and (If available) surface magma into an entrance should be possible. Meaning you'll need to either need to make some sort of drainage (Dramatic chasm-bridging entrance, anyone?) or some sort of above ground defensive structure.
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PencilinHand

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 03:15:34 pm »

Quote
Suffice to say, many ideas are circulating on improving sieges, and the update after this one may very well take a crack at implementing some of them.
:-[

Toady has also said that he is very unhappy with the length of time this update is taking but doesn't see a way around it for this cycle.  It is a goal of his to make updates more frequent.   So in all likely hood you will only have to wait a few months between updates once this monster of a rewrite is completed.

---------

I actually like the idea of some dwarfs getting unhappy thoughts for not being able to go outside due to sieges.  Make it a kind of seasonal thought, "Urist McCheesemaker is worried about being cut off" or some such.  This would provide incentive for ending a siege, but if it is done right the bad thoughts could be managed so as to outlast a siege or three.  Maybe skirmishes that are won or lost could have an effect as well, "Urist McFisherdwarf is worried about the loss recently" etc.

I think the other ideas are generally good to, the think that once DF gets past this slug fest of an update it will be poised to conquer the world.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 03:25:05 pm by PencilinHand »
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Meanmelter

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Re: Penetrating the Impenetrable Fortress
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 03:22:29 pm »

i believe the game i still in alpha...not everything is ready,so,you cant expect everything to be out on alpha
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