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[codezero]

That computer replacing humans is a load of crap, if it can't hypothesize then it can't come across new ideas to test, and it doesn't even know what's correct or otherwise, it takes a bunch of scientists, the same scientists feeding it input, to say that it's output is correct. Whoopdee do.

[Ampersand]

No, it does not require people around to say whether or not it is correct, as it finds the correct answer by itself. That's the whole point of the machine.

It doesn't need to hypothesize as it simply takes raw data, and this data can be about anything, and spits out mathematical formula that conforms to the dataset.

There were no scientists feeding it input, the pendulum system was connected to the computer directly. The Machine judged it's own output. The scientists only judged it to confirm for themselves that it was correct, not for the Machine.

[Psyco Jelly]

I think we are gods compared to lower life forms.

Of course, I don't believe in any perfect being, but I do believe in extremely powerful and influential entities that could be called gods.

Evolution is not a law or an object, but a tendency. Things tend to become more complex as time goes on. It cannot be created in any way we can comprehend.

[Smitehappy]

Bah pretty soon we're going to be be debating how you can't actually prove anything correct, you only prove things wrong.

[Yanlin]

No, it does not require people around to say whether or not it is correct, as it finds the correct answer by itself. That's the whole point of the machine.

It doesn't need to hypothesize as it simply takes raw data, and this data can be about anything, and spits out mathematical formula that conforms to the dataset.

There were no scientists feeding it input, the pendulum system was connected to the computer directly. The Machine judged it's own output. The scientists only judged it to confirm for themselves that it was correct, not for the Machine.

Can't you see that this is only the start? Remember the first computer? It was a coin. You flipped a coin to get a result. 1 or 0.

Likewise, this is the start of proper thinking AIs. It's only the start. Eventually, science will be sped up greatly by this kind of thing.

[Andir]

I think we are gods compared to lower life forms.

And herein lies my problem with religion... Do you care if a microbial being is swimming left or right or if it ate it's own offspring to survive?  If there was a higher being as described, that is not really by definition "God" but some life form with tremendous power, why would it care about you?

[LegoLord]

Gone for awhile and this ugly topic comes up.

There are just too many definitions of gods for any solid thing to be said about their existence.  Someone mentioned the old Norse gods to counter one of Aqizzar's earlier points.

I myself follow a modification of the "clockmaker" philosophy, in which the Christian God occasionally "winds up" the "clock" (universe) that he made when things start going screwy.  Like when Jesus was around, for example, and the years before and after.  There was far greater ratio of deadly violence amongst people compared to population then than there is now, and God does not "wind up the clock" now because things are better now than they were then.  We actually learn new things now.  We advance.  Things only seem bad because news gets around more easily (A few decades ago we didn't even have internet, and we were in the Cold War then!  Much less threat of Nuke war now, but people seem to worry a lot more about The End).

But that is merely my personal explanation for why I even can believe in God, and even then only the basics of it.  There are many other theological views, among them the idea that gods don't exist.  And people are happier if other people don't tamper with their personal theology.  One should only interfere if that particular person's views are directly causing harm to others (refusing hospital care, for example, and merely praying).

Choice between religions or lack thereof is one of our fundamental rights as humans, and one shouldn't attempt to sway others one way or the other on that matter under normal conditions, such as those on this forum.  Now I suggest we move along to topics less inviting of flame wars and just drop this one, before it gets bad.

[Andir]

And people are happier if other people don't tamper with their personal theology.  One should only interfere if that particular person's views are directly causing harm to others (refusing hospital care, for example, and merely praying).

Or... say... harming a young woman (who can't afford a child and will have to live in poverty just to support it) because your religious views decree that life is life no matter what stage of birth it's in and you'll use government to enforce your morals on others?  If you truly were a believer and you think that wrong deeds will be punished in the afterlife (later in life or whatever) then why step in the way of that?

How about them "blue laws" that state only religious minded people can hold office because they are the only ones who have a good moral compass to lead?  Unenforceable, but still law...wonder why.  How about all the statements of "God" in our public documents inviting criticism from other nations as to our true "Freedom of Religion" (as long as that religion is Christian.)

And about that people being happier topic... Why does the happiness of the religious types trump my happiness?  You say it doesn't?  Lets look at your italicized text again.  Other people are tampering with my non-belief by putting their god on my money, in my Pledge of Allegiance (which I remember having to recite in elementary school every morning, effectively lying to my country), and in my laws.  Why can't laws be without religious undertones as intended by the Bill of Rights?  Why do people feel that a law must include God or it's not legally binding?  Why is my President sworn into office on a bible?  What criticism will I get if I run for President (and somehow magically win), then don't swear on it?  Freedom of Religion in America is it's own "blue law."

And if someone wants to pray instead of taking proper medical care... why should you care?  Why then should your religious belief trump theirs?  If they are denying care to someone else, then yes, I agree.  But if they want to die because of their religion, that's their choice.

You had your two cents.  So have I.

[Yanlin]

Here's my two cents.

Andir is a good person.

[Andir]

Here's my two cents.

Andir is a good person.

I wouldn't say I'm a good person.  Good is a binary term.  Good/Bad denotes some set of morals or a defined set of rules that everyone follows.  How do you determine what "good" is?  I'd like to think of myself as a logical and fair person.

I personally feel that our own right to our own lives trumps all other beliefs.  I feel as though I should be able to do anything I want as long as it doesn't infringe on the right of another person to do what they can do*.  That's freedom.  (Dare I say Constitutional Freedom?)  Any fair government will be small but in control, cater to the least common denominator, and work for the people's freedoms instead of trying to control the people through denying them freedom.  Taxation should only be used for the establishment of defense, enforcement of laws, and maintaining infrastructure.

* Why did I say, "what they can do" instead of what they "want" to do?  I hope I don't have to explain that, but:  I want to own a mansion, but I can't very well afford it unless I apply myself to further my position to a point where I can do that.  This applies to my position on Health Care today.  Yes, a mansion and Health Care are equivalent rights in my eyes.  Everyone has a right to it... if you educate yourself, work for it, and pay for it yourself.  You might need to get a roommate/wife/partner and make personal sacrifices to do it, but it's 100% possible in today's society if you are willing to "play the game."  There are people who don't want to "play the game" and expect everyone else to "play" for them...

I also believe that we can't have true freedom without some form of governance and enforcement that should be fair and neutral.  That doesn't jibe with most religions since they themselves are forms of governance.  The all have laws, punishments, rewards, and leaders just as governments do and they are always fighting for dominance whether you think they are or not.  The only difference is that religion has no national border and seeks to inject all governments with it's ideal structure by using it's people to do it's work.

/end off-topic rant, not sorry.

Edit: Jive, jibe... such a difference for a missed key press.

[Maric]

I have no words to describe what Andir has done.

Something smart I guess, but I agree with everything he has said so far and makes the most sense out of this entire topic.

[Kagus]

Now, see?  This is progress.  Already we have gone from the simple 1/0 coin in Yanlin's post to numerous people putting forth their two-cent systems!  We've developed from a very basic prototype unit that only one organization had control over, to a readily-available system that is twice as powerful!  And this only in the space of a few posts.

Yeah.  So I don't really have anything useful to say. 


"Good" may can be a binary term or it can simply apply to a certain gray area.  But regardless of the system, it will still be subjective rather than objective.  Not to mention heavily reliant on circumstance.  But so far, I'd have to agree with you on your personal judgement of yourself (logical and fair).  And that is likely because I agree with what you're saying, and by saying that

1) I agree with what you say
2) You are a logical and fair person

I get to imply that I am also a logical and fair person by proxy.


There are quite a few choice comments coming into my head on the subject of "Church and State", but I'm apparently not in the right state of mind to word them properly, and would likely offend someone if I came forth with them.  Instead, I'm going to slink back into my little hole and watch where this thing goes after this.

[Leafsnail]

I didn't say there was any evidence specifically for the big bang, but you have to remember that any theories you come up with have to match observations.  For instance, the expanding universe needs to be explained.

Anyway, Andir does raise interesting points.  Britain is more liberal than America, and less religious, and yet, if you look at the national anthem:

God save our gracious Queen

As I stood up to sing it recently, I realised I couldn't.  But then, to hold public office in Britain, you also have to pledge allegiance to God and the Queen.  Then there's the Church of England, an official state church, and one which spends almost all its time on a polemic against gays, emancipated women and atheists (and why they are causing society to collapse).  Why the hell should these people be allowed to rail against us like this?  Why the hell do 26 of their bishops automatically get a place in the British version of the supreme court?  Is this not a gross violation of the pledge to seperate church and state if 26 of them (a fairly significant number in a 740 seat house) automatically get a place in the second most important house of representatives in the country?

In addition, many of these bishops seem to feel qualified to tell us why our country has problems (or perceived problems).  It's all down to the emancipation of women, the collapse of the family.  They claim to be inclusive, and yet many of their members still refuse to aknowledge women in the clergy, and a significant minority (at best) refuse to allow homosexuals to marry (not even in their own church, but in other churches as well).

Anyway, when all of these things have been rectified, when the Church of England and all other religious institutions have no say in the politics of the country, maybe then we can say that religion is just a harmless personal choice.  Until then...

[Yanlin]

One day... All the resources and manpower spent on religion... Would be spent on science.

That is the day, when the Atheist crime squad, can finally rest.

WE NEED A LOGIC!

[Muz]

Damn, this thread went from a decent discussion about evolution, to a dumbed down version of theoretic physics, to scientific method, to religion flaming