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Author Topic: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution  (Read 24320 times)

Il Palazzo

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2009, 07:01:12 pm »

(some ancient greek guy)This the temple of Dzeus, the chief god of our panteon. He likes to woo ladies and drop thunderbolts on our heads.
(Aqizzar)Nonono, this isn't god. God is pertfect, infinite and incomprehensible.
[flamewar]

(some ancient norse guy)This is Odin, the chief god of our pantheon. He traded off his eye for the gift of seeing future. He also is going to be killed...
(Aqizzar)Nononono, god cannot be killed! Besides god knows the future by definition, you dumbass.
[flamewar]
(etc)
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inaluct

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2009, 07:05:25 pm »

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him a God?"
Epicurus had, has, and will have a time machine. This quote proves it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 07:07:27 pm by inaluct »
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Aqizzar

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2009, 07:17:18 pm »

I guess I'm not understanding how
"God" is therefor any consciousness whose extent can never be drawn, and by extension, we as limited beings will never be able to equal or grasp...that which can never be understood

Can equal your idea of:

scientific logic

That sounds anathema to scientific logic if you ask me.

It's called induction, taking what is known, finding the gaps in that, and defining what could fill those gaps.  Logically speaking, if there are things we can know, there must be things we can never know.  That statement might rankle some scientists, but it is not unscientific.  Under my structure, "God" is a catchall term for a being that exists and moves outside the bounds of the universe, but can still effect things inside it.  That there's no physical identity of such a thing is irrelevant - it's a conceptual definition, which can be placed within our picture of reality.  Kind of like drawing "Here there be Dragons" on the blank spaces of a map, except that blank space is outside the borders of physical reality, and the Dragon can unmake that reality at will.


(some ancient greek guy)This the temple of Dzeus, the chief god of our panteon. He likes to woo ladies and drop thunderbolts on our heads.
(Aqizzar)Nonono, this isn't god. God is pertfect, infinite and incomprehensible.
[flamewar]

(some ancient norse guy)This is Odin, the chief god of our pantheon. He traded off his eye for the gift of seeing future. He also is going to be killed...
(Aqizzar)Nononono, god cannot be killed! Besides god knows the future by definition, you dumbass.
[flamewar]
(etc)

If I had a time machine, I'd be dead in minutes.  Wandering around the past shouting "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG"!
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Chutney

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2009, 07:18:06 pm »

(some ancient greek guy)This the temple of Dzeus, the chief god of our panteon. He likes to woo ladies and drop thunderbolts on our heads.
(Aqizzar)Nonono, this isn't god. God is pertfect, infinite and incomprehensible.
[flamewar]

(some ancient norse guy)This is Odin, the chief god of our pantheon. He traded off his eye for the gift of seeing future. He also is going to be killed...
(Aqizzar)Nononono, god cannot be killed! Besides god knows the future by definition, you dumbass.
[flamewar]
(etc)
I wholly approve of this post. No offense to anyone, but that's kind of the way I'm seeing Aqizzar's argument right now. You're using the Christian version of God to define a god.

Also, I liked how throughout the thread people were/are responding to the title, and ignoring the content of the post. "I can't stand it when people say God is responsible for evolution!!!" when the thread has nothing to do with that, but rather "God is a result of things evolving and advancing themselves to omniscience/omnipotence"

Edit: This isn't even a religious debate, this thread is basically saying "One day humans will advance themselves to be very powerful". This is science and secularism.
Lol
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Mr Tk

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2009, 07:18:53 pm »

*Prod prod prod* Ok I'll give this thread a go.

First evolution does not prove the existence of god, just as the lack of evolution would also not prove the existence of god. Evolution and God can be mutually exclusive.

Second there was a book called Columbus, a kind of semi-fictional, semi-historic novel based around Christopher Columbus. He has a conversion with a being whom he believes is God. The being says 'I am not God but to you I would look like God.'

The conversation then carries on with the being telling Columbus that he wonders if there is a god, if he would encounter an even greater being that again would look like god to himself.

So from this we could derive the logical statement that:
n believes in g (Where g is god.)
n meets b, but b  is not g. (Where b is the higher being.)
Now repeat again except this time b becomes n until you find that b is equal to g.

As you can see it will never reach the step b is equal to g.

Note that this logical does not say that there is NO god.

Third, who is to say where evolution is going to take us? For all we know the next stage of our evolution could be into something which is decidedly not god like, if at all. Remember that even the most primitive of beings (bacteria) can kill us, in which case it's not every god like.

Also what's to say that this evolution IS going to happen? For all we know that may or may not happen.



Quote from: lumin
Does an ameoba comprehend what an automobile is?  Does an ant understand how we can communicate through internet?  Does an earthworm have the slightest understanding how human beings can fly across the span of the earth in a matter of hours?

Let's pose a situation. You as a man from 1500 A.D are walking along one day and you come across a cellphone. It has no power, but it is totally intact otherwise. Would you understand what it does, what it is for? Would you consider this piece of technology alien or from God? Hell look at 100 years ago. Would they understand what a PS3 would be for?

Quote from: lumin
The gulf in comprehension, evolution and technology between an ameoba and a human being is no larger than the gap between us and a Supreme Being that builds worlds, parts seas, hears prayers, and moves across the universe in an instant.

We know that man has not evolved in that time, only advanced. So that means that people from at least 100 years ago could believe that this had been created by God. But it was the same people. No different to the past, just more advanced, no evolution involved, but there is a gulf of understanding.
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Glacial Eidolon

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2009, 07:58:16 pm »

Without reading most of the thread, I'll add in my own two cents here.

Many people think that evolution is to create a perfect creature. This is true; evolution seeks to create creatures that can survive, that can prosper, that can rule. But evolution also has a balancing aspect: a creature cannot become too powerful or "perfect" (in the human sense of the word) before it is wiped off the map by other creatures.

My definition of "perfect" is a slight bit different than most.

"Perfect" does not mean ultimate. Perfect does not mean that it cannot be beaten, that it has complete and total dominion over all that exists. Perfect simply means that it fits into nature like a puzzle piece; it does not conquer and burn, yet it doesn't die to the flick of a flame, either. Take flies: they are weak, unassuming, and annoying. They rest in dung and spread diseases. But they also are so deeply embedded in this planet's ecosystem that it would be almost impossible to remove them. They... they are a creature, as perfect as they can get. They serve a purpose, they survive, and they prosper. In fact, I'd think they would be harder to remove from the earth than humans.

Evolution and natural selection (at least from my uninformed opinion) go hand-in-hand. Evolution is the progression of the strongest. Natural selection, for the most part, is the survival of those creatures that are not too powerful and not too weak. For if one becomes too weak, then it is purged by the stronger. If it is strong, then other weaker ones will group up and bring it down, over a period of time.

Keep this in mind: The city of New York has nearly twenty million people living in it. A small suburban area close to it could have eleven thousand. Given that natural disasters are almost guaranteed to hit the area sometime or later, how many more people would die if New York got hit rather than that small suburban county? Let's say half the population of the suburbs and a quarter of New York got hit by two earthquakes: that'd be about 5.5 thousand dead versus a whopping five million. Also, New York would likely suffer many casualties afterwards: if it hit the pumping system below the city, it could possibly fracture and release thousands upon thousands of tons of water into the city, causing buildings to collapse and more to die. The suburbs might be without power, running water, and other luxuries we take for granted; but it's more likely that they would do better over a few years. That is natural selection: purging the weak, hunting the strong, and all else has a better chance of surviving.

Which leads me to my next point: natural selection need not be from other animals. As I said before, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanic activity, tsunamis, etc. etc. etc. are all part of this process. They all strike different areas of the globe, and if it hits at random a certain area there's more of a probability it would hit us than say, a lion. Anything that kills can be considered natural selection: anything.

Of course the process is not perfect: nothing can be but the conglomeration of many products combined. But know that it may delay, it may dull for a while, but every spot we took to get to the rank we are now WILL someday fall. I'm not even sure if we'll be around in a few hundred years, even. We may have overstepped our boundaries, and we may be paying for it.

Right now it's simply if. But what will happen if it becomes when?

But I digress. Those are my thoughts: but do know that my words are not my ultimatum. Perhaps you could convince me otherwise?
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ousire

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2009, 08:20:14 pm »

You're either convinced God exists, in which case you're happy knowing there's a God; or you're convinced s/he doesn't, in which case you're happy knowing you can make your own way in the world; or you're not convinced either way, in which case you're happy to let the other two groups duke it out while you go have tea in peace.

so tempted to put this in my sig
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Andir

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2009, 08:21:49 pm »

By that definition, you are not referring to God as most religions would teach you.  By following that logic, you defy pretty much all religious teaching by claiming that "God" isn't really worth praising because he is just like us... but he has cooler toys.  If you are correct, all religious folks are simply pets and slaves.  Atheists would be the only true free thinkers and people knowing that if such a being existed, it could be controlled itself instead of it controlling us.  (if that makes sense.)

Also, if "God" were at such a high level, what's the point of praying, wishing, hoping, and serving a god that want's to observe you in your natural environment without knowing the existence of said scientist?  If they created you to study your habits and activities, then believing that such a thing exists and changing your life because of it is defying the point that they created you and "breaking" their experiment.  ::)  If they do want you to believe in the "creator" then they are simply looking for domesticated human pets to serve their purposes.  I don't know about you... but that's not the life I want.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Andir

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2009, 08:25:49 pm »

You're either convinced God exists, in which case you're happy knowing there's a God; or you're convinced s/he doesn't, in which case you're happy knowing you can make your own way in the world; or you're not convinced either way, in which case you're happy to let the other two groups duke it out while you go have tea in peace.

so tempted to put this in my sig
The problem with that ideology is when one of the three branches forces their ideals on the others through governments and civil controls.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Il Palazzo

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2009, 08:29:32 pm »

A plea to the world:
Do not turn this thread into another atheism/religion flamewar.
This thread is not about converting people to each other's point of view on the subject of religion.
This thread is about possible outcomes of the evolution, paleoarcheology and Erich von Daniken's ideas(or delusions). Come on guys, somebody ought to mention him already.
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Andir

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2009, 08:32:28 pm »

A plea to the world:
Do not turn this thread into another atheism/religion flamewar.
This thread is not about converting people to each other's point of view on the subject of religion.
This thread is about possible outcomes of the evolution, paleoarcheology and Erich von Daniken's ideas(or delusions). Come on guys, somebody ought to mention him already.
Isn't that pretty much what the point of the OP is though?  Trying to convince everyone else that their idea on "God" is what they think and everyone else could be wrong.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Chutney

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2009, 08:34:16 pm »

By that definition, you are not referring to God as most religions would teach you.  By following that logic, you defy pretty much all religious teaching by claiming that "God" isn't really worth praising because he is just like us... but he has cooler toys.  If you are correct, all religious folks are simply pets and slaves.  Atheists would be the only true free thinkers and people knowing that if such a being existed, it could be controlled itself instead of it controlling us.  (if that makes sense.)

Also, if "God" were at such a high level, what's the point of praying, wishing, hoping, and serving a god that want's to observe you in your natural environment without knowing the existence of said scientist?  If they created you to study your habits and activities, then believing that such a thing exists and changing your life because of it is defying the point that they created you and "breaking" their experiment.  ::)  If they do want you to believe in the "creator" then they are simply looking for domesticated human pets to serve their purposes.  I don't know about you... but that's not the life I want.
Could you point out any part of the OP where they begin discussing anything related to this? There's no mention of worshiping. The OP doesn't say "This is how I prove there is a God, now worship him". The OP is more along the line of "There must be gods, because eventually a life form would reach a point where they would fit our description of one." There is no statement of these beings wishing to be worshiped, or even being the gods we worship on earth.
As I said before, this discussion is entirely secular except for the use of the word "god".

Quote
Isn't that pretty much what the point of the OP is though?  Trying to convince everyone else that their idea on "God" is what they think and everyone else could be wrong.
I get the idea that the OP is more musing than trying to convince anyone of anything. He thought what he was thinking was interesting and decided to share it with us and get our opinions. It IS interesting, but everybody is interpretting the thread wrong.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 08:36:00 pm by Chutney »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2009, 08:36:36 pm »

Il Palazzo approves of Chutney's message.
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Andir

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2009, 08:38:44 pm »

Could you point out any part of the OP where they begin discussing anything related to this? There's no mention of worshiping. The OP doesn't say "This is how I prove there is a God, now worship him". The OP is more along the line of "There must be gods, because eventually a life form would reach a point where they would fit our description of one." There is no statement of these beings wishing to be worshiped, or even being the gods we worship on earth.
As I said before, this discussion is entirely secular except for the use of the word "god".
By definition, a God is something to be worshiped.  Perhaps he could have chosen the wording "a perfect being" instead of stating "God."
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Ohaeri

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2009, 08:40:41 pm »

I am also sick of those agnostic arguments that say "You can't use the scientific method to prove or disprove god"

...

I am sick of Agnostics who constantly belittle science and claim that there's unknowable knowledge out there. Knowledge that is impossible to know.

I'm sorry that I gave the impression that I think this will be forever unknowable. My point was that currently, as best I know, we can't use the scientific method to prove or disprove God. I'm sorry if that's offensive; it's just the way I think. I don't like to declare something unless I'm certain of it. I definitely didn't mean to belittle science, and if I have given the impression that I think science isn't worth much, then I humbly apologize. I think it's great that you have faith that the answer can be found. I have perhaps less faith than you, in that I'm waiting until the actual means arrive before declaring that it can be done. And, again, I'm sorry if that's offensive or upsetting to you. It certainly feels like I have upset you, and that wasn't my intention at all.

I simply wish people would let others be and use their religion or lack thereof to enrich their lives and the lives of those around them. It seems pointless to me to have a debate in which the answer is (currently) unknowable and the result only anger, frustration, and hurt on all sides.

Quote
As I said before, this discussion is entirely secular except for the use of the word "god".

God isn't really a secular concept, though. It might help for him to redefine what he is talking about without relying on religious words or concepts. If he was hoping to make this a secular argument, then he rather shot himself in the foot by including religious concepts in it, IMO.

EDIT: I aims to please.

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« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 08:48:03 pm by Ohaeri »
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