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Author Topic: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution  (Read 24276 times)

lumin

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To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« on: July 12, 2009, 12:04:26 pm »

I got to thinking recently about Evolution and what the human race would be like if we kept surviving for millions or billions of years.

Most of the time when we think of "Aliens" or Extraterrestrials, we think of little green men abducting people with laser guns and flying saucers.  Star Trek typically portrays other intelligent life sharing about the same amount of intelligence as humans, but with a different forehead and skin color.

Do we ever stop to wonder how long until we as humans develop the technology to build flying saucers, laser guns or warp drive?  I don't think it is very far off.  In fact I think we could be at the same level of technology in only a few hundred more years.

A few hundred years is a tiny speck on the immense scale of evolution and infinity.  Think about it, other than intersteller travel, we already have a lot of the technology that they had on Star Trek TNG.  We have trichorders (iphones and GPS), virtual gaming worlds (now with full-body motion detection), near-instant communication (internet), and animal cloning.

If we could take a peek at the human race, not hundreds or thousands of years, but billions of years into the future (saying that we still even existed), is it so hard to believe that we would appear god-like?  It's likely that we would be total masters of space travel, genetics, computers and would have bodies without illness and immune to death.

All we have to do is take a look at a life-form a billion years behind ourselves.  Does an ameoba comprehend what an automobile is?  Does an ant understand how we can communicate through internet?  Does an earthworm have the slightest understanding how human beings can fly across the span of the earth in a matter of hours?

The gulf in comprehension, evolution and technology between an ameoba and a human being is no larger than the gap between us and a Supreme Being that builds worlds, parts seas, hears prayers, and moves across the universe in an instant.

So I think that it is very plausible that there existed a race of alien beings that evolved so far, that they became the dominant force in the universe.  I believe that they became so intelligent that they were able to create life and even transform it.  To us, it appears supernatural and "miraculous".  To them, it's science and second nature. 

Perhaps, these "God" beings have become so powerful that the only thing that brings them purpose and happiness is to create new life and new planets using their ultra-evolved senses and ultra-developed technologies.  If we believe that evolution's goal is to create the perfect creature, then what is more perfect than God?  So, in a way, God is the triumph of Evolution, making Science and Religion one and the same.

I find it a little silly that we as humans are always on the lookout for "other" intelligent life in the universe.  It is very likely that the intelligent life has already found us, in the same way we find earthworms in our backyard.

I think it's extremely egotistical to deny the existence of an all powerful being or beings and still believe in Evolution.  To do that, you must believe that humans are the end, or near end result of Evolution, not a small step in it's process.  If the universe has always existed, then Evolution has already had an infinite amount of time to create a God being.  To say a God doesn't exist, is to deny the scope of Evolution.  If a single-celled organism, residing in some primordial soup, can evolve into the complicated being that humans are, why must evolution stop there?  In the grand scheme of the universe, humans are nothing more than mindless microbes compared to what evolution can still do for life.

So I guess I have a hard time understanding why religious people have a hard time accepting evolution in school or why atheists want to throw out any study of religion in a public forum.  Science helps me validate and believe in God the more I learn from it.

Along those lines, I don't see the creation story in the Bible as completely literal.  I believe humans came about mostly via natural selection, but that doesn't mean a God didn't influence the science behind alleles and genes necessary to bring about human life.  A programmer pre-codes a piece of software to do something on its own, but that doesn't mean there wasnt an architect who put the product in motion.

We already know that there is a god-like creature on Earth: humans compared to lower life-forms like insects.  Take a boy and his ant farm.  The boy is omnipotent, can literally cause earthquakes, part seas, deliver or restrict food, and destroy them all in an instant.  He has total and complete control over his ants, in a way that the ants will never be able to comprehend.  The boy became a god to these creatures, merely through the process of evolution of life on Earth.

So, to sum it up: 
Natural Selection/Evolution is designed to create the perfect organism, given enough time.  Since Evolution has had enough time and space, which it has (infinity), it would be able to create a God-like being.  Since all of the requirements have been met, then there IS an alien with god-like properties (aka "God") based on this deduction.  It's, therefore, impossible for there NOT to be a God-like being in the universe.  Since there IS a God, and he is omnipotent, then this Being knows of life on Earth.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:18:58 pm by lumin »
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Puck

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 12:10:26 pm »

So, to sum it up: 
Natural Selection/Evolution is designed to create the perfect organism, given enough time.  Since Evolution has had enough time and space, which it has (infinity), it would be able to create a God-like being.  Since all of the requirements have been met, then there IS an alien with god-like properties (aka "God") based on this deduction.  It's, therefore, impossible for there NOT to be a God-like being in the universe.  Since there IS a God, and he is omnipotent, then this Being knows of life on Earth.
Too many assumptions topped with a few fallacies, might that be?

(still, a cool and trippy train of thoughts, nevertheless!)

edit: can I haz some of the stuff you're having?

Aqizzar

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2009, 12:42:35 pm »

Oh great, you're back.  ...My take-

Existence is not dependent on exterior observation.  There need be no one to see the Earth for the entirely self-contained and self-sustaining process of evolution to happen as it happens.

Natural Selection and Evolution are not synonymous terms.  Natural Selection is an extremely unreliable process, by which when creatures come up with a random selection of their decedent genes at birth, they may or may not survive, by skill, ability, or more often just luck, in their ever changing environment to pass on those genes.  Evolution is the ongoing result taken in millennial aggregate.

They are simply terms that we have created to describe processes that emerge in the unthinking course of natural life.  Neither is "designed" to create the "perfect organism", in just the same way that erosion is not designed to create the perfect mountain.  There is no defined order, or criteria, or goal, or even predictability.  Consider the human appendix and polydactyly, feinting goats, pandas, lichen masses, or even just the trillion or so species in the world.  Which of them is "perfect"?  By your illogic, will there come a day when the entire Earth is populated is one kind of creature?
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Yanlin

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2009, 12:52:57 pm »

Oh boy. My brain is having a field day laughing at yet another "LOL EVOLUTION CANNOT HAPPEN WITHOUT GOD" argument.

I am going to say this. Your post would fool only the average thinker at best.  It has SO MANY logical fallacies and inaccuracies.

However, it is good that you're trying to think about it and asking for our input. That's the right path. Keep up with it. You've already proven that you're not an idiot. Congratulations.
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Ohaeri

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 12:56:20 pm »

I think it's a moot question, personally. You're either convinced God exists, in which case you're happy knowing there's a God; or you're convinced s/he doesn't, in which case you're happy knowing you can make your own way in the world; or you're not convinced either way, in which case you're happy to let the other two groups duke it out while you go have tea in peace.

Nobody can prove to anybody else that their view is right and even trying seems to invite frustration and grief on both sides.
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Yanlin

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 01:05:06 pm »

I think it's a moot question, personally. You're either convinced God exists, in which case you're happy knowing there's a God; or you're convinced s/he doesn't, in which case you're happy knowing you can make your own way in the world; or you're not convinced either way, in which case you're happy to let the other two groups duke it out while you go have tea in peace.

Nobody can prove to anybody else that their view is right and even trying seems to invite frustration and grief on both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
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inaluct

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 01:06:50 pm »

Because this thread has tremendous potential for a flamewar, I will refrain from everything but pointing out that natural selection drives organisms to adapt to their environment, not to slowly march forward into godhood.

Oh, also, in response to Yanlin; Yes.
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Ohaeri

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2009, 01:20:34 pm »

I think it's a moot question, personally. You're either convinced God exists, in which case you're happy knowing there's a God; or you're convinced s/he doesn't, in which case you're happy knowing you can make your own way in the world; or you're not convinced either way, in which case you're happy to let the other two groups duke it out while you go have tea in peace.

Nobody can prove to anybody else that their view is right and even trying seems to invite frustration and grief on both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Eh . . . I'm guessing you're replying to the bottom part of my post? In which case I have to point out, that nobody has successfully used the scientific method to find definite empirical evidence for or against the existence of God. The scientific method is good for making sure experiments can be replicated and that their results are consistent. I'm pretty sure there's been no experiment that has been able to say "God exists" or "God doesn't exist."
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Aqizzar

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2009, 01:23:17 pm »

No, but what the scientific method can do is prove that processes happen of their own natural accord, without supernatural urging or influence.  The Scientific Method is useless for proving or disproving God, but not his complete lack of worldly activity.
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Ohaeri

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 01:25:12 pm »

No, but what the scientific method can do is prove that processes happen of their own natural accord, without supernatural urging or influence.  The Scientific Method is useless for proving or disproving God, but not his complete lack of worldly activity.

Yep, my point exactly. I'm not trying to say that we should all shut our brains down or anything. :D I'm just saying that attributing things to God or trying to get other people to stop attributing things to God seems a rather pointless exercise either way (assuming they've got the system learned correctly and know how it functions in nature, of course). For all we know, God started evolution as a self-sustaining system and has been spending the rest of eternity picking his nose.

To clarify: trying to use the existence of natural phenomena as proof positive or negative of God's existence, is what is pointless to me. Making sure others have correct understanding of what's currently been absolutely proven in reality, not so much.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 01:29:21 pm by Ohaeri »
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lumin

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 01:32:34 pm »

Because this thread has tremendous potential for a flamewar, I will refrain from everything but pointing out that natural selection drives organisms to adapt to their environment, not to slowly march forward into godhood.

Oh, also, in response to Yanlin; Yes.

I'll just say this:

#1:  We have already proven a "God" (or Gods) exists.  Compared to lower life-forms on Earth, human beings are Gods.

#2: Our "environment" includes the entire universe does it not?  Natural Selection has not driven humans to adapt to fully to moving about the stars yet.  If complete adaptation of the universe (aka, our environment) is what natural selection strives for in a life-form, then would we not consider this life-form a "God" compared to our current state of intelligence/evolution?
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Jreengus

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 01:43:13 pm »

I was going to reply but no, just no. I'm staying away from this inevitable flame fest.

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Aqizzar

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 01:50:33 pm »

I came into this a little bitter, but there's no need for that.  However, I will say that those two "points" are the crux of your logical dissonance.  Namely, the personification of God.  God is not a person.  God does not play the same rules as people.  By true definition, God is hard to consider a being at all.

There is a world of difference between any species or people or being in the Universe, and the all-pervasive exterior consciousness and power that constitutes a God.  To put it simply, no matter how powerful we are or ever become in relation to any other thing in the universe, we are not "Gods" compared to it, because we are still finite and fallible.  God, existing or not, is by definition Infinite, and nothing like us mortals or anything we could ever be.
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Dakk

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 02:13:53 pm »

TL;DR, but i'll try to give my two cents on the matter.

How evolution can't exist without god? Even today we notice some aspects of evolution happen and develop without any kind of non natural interference (certain fish becoming resistant to cold and viruses during certain seasons, actually doing a significant change in their DNA which will be carried by their offspring). Causality is real, major things are many times fruits of accidents, mere random events connecting themselves naturaly or through non-conscious inteference.

The mere concept of a omniscient, omnipresent and almighty god is incompatible with its supposed purpose presented by ALL religions stating god is perfect. If god is omniscient, it would be impossible to offend him in any way, for he would know every mistake and "sin" you'd commit through your whole existence. If god is almighty, then he'd be able to do everything in a perfect, unstoppable way, and yet in the bible god admits that he was wrong many times and attempt to fix this by dusting everything under his all encompassing carpet, and fails to do so completely a few times, religion (mainly christianity/cathlicism) just say that god works in mysterious ways, and pretend its all a-okay.

In a logical point of view, if a god does exist and he had anything to do with us, then said being is not omniscient OR almighty, in fact, the christian/catholic depiction of god makes "him" seem more like a DF player then anything else.
If the definition of god is of an all powerful, all knowing and perfect being, then said being either does not exist, or didn't create the universe as we know for, since according to everything tested and proved by science, our universe is far from perfect, and very possibly not even infinite.

And who said evolution has stopped? We have created a convenient, rather confortable world for us to fulfill nearly all of our needs, our phisical evolution has slowed down because we don't need to rely on our bodies to survive as much as we did anymore.

And now i feel like a hypocrite for making a huge TL;DR post myself.  :-X
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:24:20 pm by Dakk »
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cerapa

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Re: To deny the existence of God is to deny Evolution
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 02:29:40 pm »

There could be an huge amount of universes as a bunch of gods came from a single universe and created new ones, and when they matured then they caused more gods that created more universes. This would cause a constantly speeding up universe creation and we would only be a single reaction in an infinite chain reaction of creation.

But, we could also be the single "seed" universe from which everything spawns.
 
Its stupid to assume something for which we have no known facts, no single piece of evidence.
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