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I like it.

8 (40%)

Nice!  It should have (write suggestion)

0 (0%)

mmm... I've seen this somewhere...

0 (0%)

Awesome!

3 (15%)

Sounds interesting.

4 (20%)

Nah...

5 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 20

[Alexhans]

I'm going to sleep now but tomorrow morning I'll post my comments and ideas for the game.

[Alexhans]

I had been thinking about a smaller scale project.  An small magic "school" with only one master and 5 young men learning and competing to be the next alchemist/wizard/whatever.  But it was just for the sake of simplification. 

Spoiler: Movement (click to show/hide)

Just the basics: walking around, going up and down stairs. Perhaps it's best to reserve space for other kinds of movement as well

When that's in we can start worrying about pathfinding and adding in things like movement speed et cetera

Spoiler: Movement (click to show/hide)

Yeah... we need to support Keypad and NumPad movement in 8 directions plus defining keys for going up/down ladders and other actions.

Pathfinding will be a must at some point so we should plan ahead to support a good method.

Spoiler: Level generation (click to show/hide)

I assume we're going to do proceduraly generated levels. But if we're working on a school, we can't just throw in a random set of rooms like one would do with a dungeon.

Instead I think it'd be best if we'd divide the school up in floors, make a system that can generate all the corridors needed and then add the classrooms, house rooms, mess halls, sleeping chambers et cetera. Idealy, the school should also house all kinds of secrets that can only be reached with advanced spells that you'll only learn later on in the game.

A magic school also needs gardens and other pieces of countryside to stroll around and gather herbs, so we'll need a way to generate those as well, idealy with a bit of a plan behind them as well.

Spoiler: Level generation (click to show/hide)

The whole point of replayability is strengthened by using procedural generated maps.  Variety calls for new experiences.  I agree that the school can't be simply randomized like a dungeon.

In fact.  We may want the school to have very specific locations/traits that will never change so you don't need to spend half the game learning where is everything every time you start a new game.

If we add more a lot of floors it will be fairly easy to create inaccessible rooms until some requirement is fullfilled.

The gardens, woods, etc are an important part of the game.  We need to encourage the player to explore that world and divide areas in different levels of safety.

Spoiler: Spellcasting (click to show/hide)

We need to decide upon a system for casting spells as well as a way to represent it within the game. Since I expect this to be an important part of the game, this must be fun and not cumbersome.

Spoiler: Spellcasting (click to show/hide)

I've been thinking about different ways to perform magic.  There's the obviousness of wands wich several people think we should avoid.  I like the concept that magic is strongly related to the caster's mind control & wisdom but using an object to chanalize that power may make it a bit more interesting.   I was thinking about necklaces with 4 cores... Head (Intuition, Smarts, etc), Arms (Physical Strenght, Abilities), Body/heart (Healing power, Endurance, etc) and legs(Speed, Agility, reflexes,etc).  Each core may store a small object.  Depending on the energy and type of that object the man wearing the necklace would gain different attributes.

Spoiler: Lessons, rosters et cetera (click to show/hide)

This is the part I've got the most trouble deciding on: Should the lessons themselves be an important part of the game, in the form of quests and mini-games, or are they breaks in between the real game, in which you somehow aquire more knowledge? or should they be a combination of both?

Anyway, we'll need a way to set up rosters, which also includes time restrictions for exams and practical work. Idealy there should be a system that scramble the rosters, so you don't get all the lessons in the same order, but things like Alchemy 101 should always come before Paraphysical Cristalurgy, so we also need to decide an order for the lessons (and the lessons themselves as well)

Spoiler: Lessons, rosters et cetera (click to show/hide)

Yeah, I've faced similar problems.  Should we make them play mastermind as a simulation of intuition training? How to make a lesson fun enough or just avoid it all toguether and let the student's skills & characteristics resolve each situation?

We may probably treat it in a sim like manner.   You have to manage your resources (in this case, time) to obtain a certain set of requiriments to fullfill a goal (getting good grades or at least, not flunking).

Lessons could always throw a tip after/during each class.  Imagine having enchantment lesson and learning "Mashed Green Mushrooms with Beetle's eyes at 35ºC will make a good potion against sea-sick disease".
After that class.  You'll be able to mix those ingredients and make the potion (wich wouldn't work before, hadn't you gone to the class).

That way.  Classes prove really useful and don't seem like a burden. 

Of course, there's a lot of approaches.  We may add some kind of learning meter that keeps adding up with each lesson  you attend until you learn something new (related to the class topic).

Maybe you need to be in a certain condition or possess some other prerequisite to gain those learning points.

Spoiler: Organisations and activities (click to show/hide)

It might also be an idea to situate a multitude of organisations in the school. Maybe something similar to the Houses of Harry Potter would be interesting, since that'll give plenty of inter-house feuds and drama for the game to work with.

Besides that, there should be plenty extra-scolar activities to attend, possibly organised by the organisations situated on the school; sports, research projects, fairs, excursions et cetera.

Spoiler: Organisations and activities (click to show/hide)

If we go all the sim way.  It's definetly a nice trait.  I'm a bit worried about managing the AI's drives and activities if there are too much of them.

If anyone with some AI experience could tell us about it and how it can be approached I would be glad.

Spoiler: Interaction with fellow students and teachers (click to show/hide)

Another important point is the interaction with others. We'll need to simulate a lot of students you can bump into and idealy each of them should have something interesting. Developing feuds and love interests can give rise to a lot of drama and interesting situations (I saw Cral and Mia kiss while Mia dates Pete. But if I tell, they'll know I was invisible and I'm forbidden from being invisible outside of Refractomagy 101)

Spoiler: Interaction with fellow students and teachers (click to show/hide)

This are really interesting ideas.  But hard also if you try to spread to thin.  I think, if we decide to make a big school, we should stick to basic interactions (in a generic way so as to, eventually, add more of them)

Spoiler: Failure (click to show/hide)

Any good rougelike has a lot of ways to fail, but a school can't go about killing half of it's students (or perhaps this school can, just because we say so). so we have to think of ways in which something can go wrong and the player gets into trouble. Plenty of lose conditions are needed and also a lot of things that makes stuff harder. I'm at the very least thinking of penalties for bad behaviour (if they found out... Nobody will know that you and Anne have been sneaking around the greenhouses at night if nobody saw you), penalties for failing tests and exams, and even severe wounds stemming from incorrect magic usage or lack of attention in difficult classes

Spoiler: Failure (click to show/hide)

lol.  Well... You can always die due to an attack (by an animal/monster) or an accident involving something you should probably not be doing.  But I'm in favour of a penalties system where you will be punished (points, grades, detentions, whatever) if you're found breaking the rules.  There will be also reactions for what you do that can be taken as a bad consequence (Eg: drink unknown potion, pass out).  Expulsion should be another way of losing the game.

Spoiler: Development (click to show/hide)

A last point I'd like to talk about is how the game develops. Is it just that you get further and further as a mage, or should we simulate sme darker forces at work (like in Harry Potter). Or do we choose quite a different route altogheter?

Another part to think about is character development. Does the character just get better at magic as time goes by? Does he or she develop in other ways as well? How do we handle equipment? How do we get the "Just one more step"-feeling that good games have?

Spoiler: Development (click to show/hide)

Well... What we are proposing here is that the main character needs a purpose.  Not just a limited set of tasks but some drive to become powerful/wise enough to overcome a general, widespread problematic. 

We need to define if we are making a big school or a small school/workshop with only one master and few pupils.  Less pupils will give space for improved AI.  Bigger school gives space for a lot of things but may end up being pretty complex.

Now that so much time has passed.  It may be time to perform a check on those who were interested so as to see what sort of team we can use to make the design document.  Resources & tools that we're gonna use should be set soon because the desing should take them into account.

[Alexhans]

mmm... this looks cool... I'm gonna check it out.
http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=TinyCurses
http://code.google.com/p/tinycurses/

[qwertyuiopas]

One of the ideas I brought up in IRC was that the archmage had summoned an alternate world kind of space that was similar to that MC escher stairs thing(the one with no specific down), and hidden higher level knowledge in it for the students. This would have specific areas set up in it where to poss to learn new secrets you have to utilize your knowledge. It also adds an end-game component where potentially another dimension breaks into it and you have to fight your way to the end to stop it and save the school.

[Alexhans]

Hi everyone... Given the lack of responses I've been toying around with the mechanics for procedural generation.  Messing around with dungeon generation and stuff.  I already have my flood fill function too see if there are non-connected spots. 

My problem is not knowing exactly what should I aim for in terms of procedural generation.  How to make it practical but pseudo-random.

What do we want for a school?  Does someone have any ideas as to how it should be?


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Exercise 1
How would you Design an ASCII magic school with the following characteristics?:

- Astronomy Tower.
- Headmaster's Room.
- 6 Common Bedrooms 3 for boys and 3 for girls (with bathrooms).  Total Cap: 30 people.
- Main Hall
- Enrance Hall
- Kitchen
- 4 Large Classrooms and 10 small ones.
- Workshop
- Lab
- Any other thing you feel like adding.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

[qwertyuiopas]

Well, it could build it from preconstructed blocks of 10x10 tiles given connection information(an int for each of the 6 directions, matches the N int to another block's S int and so on), though it would be a bit difficult to avoid unmatchable situations...

[Virex]

I'd toss all the needed rooms into a container (vector's probably the best, or any kind of list) and then start with the entrance on the first floor. Add in the first room and then pick the next room, based upon what the first room was.

So if the first room was a class room, the next room is more likely to be a class room as well. Now here's the trick: you've got a limited amount of class rooms, so eventualy you're out of class rooms and something else will be added. Then everything starts anew.

When you pick a room this way, you attach it to the currently active room. If there's no place to atach it to the active room, you put it back in the container and select and adjacent room as the active room.

If you then try to fit everything into a predefined area and add in conectivety via staircases then you should be able to make a convincing school.
There's one problem though: this methode won't create a good fit. To fix that you'll eventualy have to either expand the existing rooms to fill up gaps, or use the gaps for secret rooms and passages.

[qwertyuiopas]

I have a bit more experience with OpenGL and pixel-accuracy, so I think I know how to make a slightly better engine, if you needed/wanted one...

[Alexhans]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd toss all the needed rooms into a container (vector's probably the best, or any kind of list) and then start with the entrance on the first floor. Add in the first room and then pick the next room, based upon what the first room was.

So if the first room was a class room, the next room is more likely to be a class room as well. Now here's the trick: you've got a limited amount of class rooms, so eventualy you're out of class rooms and something else will be added. Then everything starts anew.

When you pick a room this way, you attach it to the currently active room. If there's no place to atach it to the active room, you put it back in the container and select and adjacent room as the active room.

If you then try to fit everything into a predefined area and add in conectivety via staircases then you should be able to make a convincing school.
There's one problem though: this methode won't create a good fit. To fix that you'll eventualy have to either expand the existing rooms to fill up gaps, or use the gaps for secret rooms and passages.

Virex:  What parameters should a room have besides width and lenght? 

When Do you add the hallways? before fitting the rooms? 

I suppose you will work with grids to place those rooms.

Your alternative for gaps is sound.

[Alexhans]

I have a bit more experience with OpenGL and pixel-accuracy, so I think I know how to make a slightly better engine, if you needed/wanted one...

Ok... you've teased me too much.  Now you have to show me... 

What do I have to learn from OpenGl to effectively start using it?

What features does it have?   Pros and cons?

[qwertyuiopas]

Well, you need to initiate it, although I still use code copied from a tutorial.

From what I have heard, actually using it is similar to directX and with similar features.

As for learning it, The Red Book is a common standard, though some of it's samples are a bit outdated, and it does not mention setting it up, only actually using it.

I don't know about pros and cons, but it is available on almost any platform, making it much easier to port to other operating systems.

[Alexhans]

I was talking about the engine... not the opengl library...

Thanks for the link though.  I'll try to start practising with it.

[qwertyuiopas]

Oh. If I can make a decent engine, you just feed it the terrain at load-time, and directions for items and stuff.

But first, what sort of view would be desired?
2D? 3D? Isometric? Something else?

I have a prototype of an idea to make DF isometric, by simply drawing in two stages for simplified transparency


Though it could be restructured to a full engine, or the old tile-created, draws-to-the-terrain idea for a generic zombie game (the red splatters were placed by clicking)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or even the old roguelike attempt

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Virex]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'd toss all the needed rooms into a container (vector's probably the best, or any kind of list) and then start with the entrance on the first floor. Add in the first room and then pick the next room, based upon what the first room was.

So if the first room was a class room, the next room is more likely to be a class room as well. Now here's the trick: you've got a limited amount of class rooms, so eventualy you're out of class rooms and something else will be added. Then everything starts anew.

When you pick a room this way, you attach it to the currently active room. If there's no place to atach it to the active room, you put it back in the container and select and adjacent room as the active room.

If you then try to fit everything into a predefined area and add in conectivety via staircases then you should be able to make a convincing school.
There's one problem though: this methode won't create a good fit. To fix that you'll eventualy have to either expand the existing rooms to fill up gaps, or use the gaps for secret rooms and passages.

Virex:  What parameters should a room have besides width and lenght? 

I was thinking about use, danger and danger tollerance. You're going to place the mess hall and the kitchens close together and close to the dorm rooms, so they'd both be part of the "living quarters" type, whereas classrooms would be part of the "class room" type, possibly with subtypes.

Also, you'd want to keep the living quarters well away from the alchemy lab, just as anything that can't take a small explosion, so the alchemy lab has a high danger level and the living quarters all have a low danger tollerance. The outside always has a high danger tollerance, so the alchemy lab tends to be on the outside of the building where a "mistake" would be less devastating

When Do you add the hallways? before fitting the rooms? 

I suppose you will work with grids to place those rooms.

Your alternative for gaps is sound.

I was actualy thinking of adding in the hallways during room placement. Basicly, you'd add a hallway all around the first room, then add the second room, including a hallway all around (ofcourse you'd need to make it so that you don't get two hallways right next to eachother.)
Then you override parts of the hallway that are unused now. So if the first room exits into the hallway to the north, and you add a room in the west that exits to the north as well, you could erase the hallway in between them. Of course you need to know what to erase. The best criteria I can come up with is that the hallway doesn't lead anywhere.

If this leads to a map with too much connectivity, you could also erase some hallways based upon a distance check: If everything is connected, you remove the longest hallways that form the longest connection between two room entrances and expand rooms accordingly.

Also, if you'd remove a hallway, instead of expanding it you could always make it a hidden hallway with a passage to another area. If it ends in the outer wall, you could make a hidden exit, if it's on the first floor you could add secret stairs, if it's near the dimensional lab you'd add a portal to a secret vault et cetera.

[Jakkarra]

Hello!

i just remembered i wanted to help with this...

anywho, whats been done so far? is it still WIP for the planning?