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[Golgath]

I'd be pretty happy with summarily banning anyone who demonstrates that they're not willing or able to judge where the line is.

I can agree with this.  However...

What's Toady's interest in allowing people like this to post here?

I know, since there has been so much time since a release, I haven't been playing DF much, either.  Does that mean I'm not allowed to post here?

[Footkerchief]

I know, since there has been so much time since a release, I haven't been playing DF much, either.  Does that mean I'm not allowed to post here?

I haven't opened DF in weeks either, and the last time I did was to check out somebody else's bugged save.  That's not a problem.  However, there's a growing number of people here who are mainly interested in the community itself, and won't regain interest in DF even after another release.  There are even members who signed up just to post in Finally.  Excessive interest in the community itself is always a source of drama and moderation headaches.

So, let me rephrase: does B12 get a net gain from allowing/encouraging the presence of members with chronically low interest in DF, taking into account the liabilities?

[Keiseth]

I don't want to see everything locked... I love the Bay 12 Games forums. These are my favorite "general discussion" forums on the internet, and I enjoy the community. It's been a bit since I played DF, but that's mostly due to time and hardware.

I thought we were one of the most self-moderating communities on the internet. What other forums will have a topic veer out of control, only for a single user to say "hey, we need to chill a bit" -- and people listen? Mostly.

[chaoticag]

There is a net gain to keeping the forums around, as once the new version comes out, interest will be rekindled in DF. This sort of question feels like asking "what is the point of having wet firewood if it doesn't burn?" and the answer is "It will burn if given enough time."

On the other hand, people have been introduced to DF through the other games section, because someone recomends a game here, a forum goer goes to their forum for advice and finds out that there is no topic for DF on their other games section. He makes a topic, and presto! more players. I know that at least one person was introduced to DF in a similar fashion, but given that this is a word of mouth thing, every person counts.

[Sowelu]

I haven't opened DF in weeks either, and the last time I did was to check out somebody else's bugged save.  That's not a problem.  However, there's a growing number of people here who are mainly interested in the community itself, and won't regain interest in DF even after another release.  There are even members who signed up just to post in Finally.

Huh, I didn't know about that last group of people, but I -really- don't think many people here won't be all over the new release when it comes out.

When a majority (I assume!) of your income comes from one forum, it's in your best interests to keep growing that forum.  That doesn't mean catering to bad influences in that forum--those people will keep the forum small.

Besides.  If someone is ONLY here for the Finally stuff...  When the new version comes out, you really think they're entirely unlikely to notice it, and entirely unlikely to mention it to some other friend who may have forgotten about DF and been totally cut off from the community?  You think there is NO gain to be gotten from these people?

[Toady One]

Yeah, admittedly I've been a bit pissed off lately.  I think my patience is basically gone.  At the same time, I think nuking the forum might be a bit much.  I had originally hoped to build a bit more of a sense of community for people here by allowing them to range around a bit beyond DF.  I don't think that's been a failure, but it does add potential problems to be dealt with.

Speaking of potential problems, how does one go about handling proxy server attacks?  If I remember, some people use proxy servers for legitimate reasons, but do I basically have to ban them IP address by IP address as they come up?  One of the SS13 guys who got angry registered multiple accounts over multiple IP addresses, and I was only able to stop that by enabling email activation for the forum (he or she had been using non-existent email addresses).  It sucks to have an extra hoop for new people to jump through, but that's how it is.  Anyway, I gather it's still easy to get a ton of real email accounts, so I think a more determined person would be able to get around this.  I guess you just have to do IP bans one at a time, while your board is filling up with porn all the while, and hope that you don't lock legitimate proxy server users out (if there is such a person)?

[Gunner-Chan]

Uhh... I think I'm gonna take this opportunity to say I'm sorry, I know I go too far some times and Ill try and keep myself under control. If I offended anyone I am deeply sorry.

Also on the question of legitimate proxy use, they could be going around a restrictive firewall or something like that.

[Keiseth]

Egads. I didn't know something like that had occured; from my glances through the forums things seemed calm, but that was from a lot of work, I see. I too apologize, if I've offended anybody.

In addition, perhaps people in certain countries or areas need to use a proxy to access general parts of the internet. Maybe a poll should be started?

Is there anything we can do to help out?

[Ohaeri]

Speaking of potential problems, how does one go about handling proxy server attacks?  If I remember, some people use proxy servers for legitimate reasons, but do I basically have to ban them IP address by IP address as they come up?  One of the SS13 guys who got angry registered multiple accounts over multiple IP addresses, and I was only able to stop that by enabling email activation for the forum (he or she had been using non-existent email addresses).  It sucks to have an extra hoop for new people to jump through, but that's how it is.  Anyway, I gather it's still easy to get a ton of real email accounts, so I think a more determined person would be able to get around this.  I guess you just have to do IP bans one at a time, while your board is filling up with porn all the while, and hope that you don't lock legitimate proxy server users out (if there is such a person)?

Actually, if you can figure out what proxy site they're using, you can ban that specific proxy server if I'm not mistaken. It's a very very temporary solution, but sometimes it's enough to scare off or frustrate attackers.

Alternately, you can just ban all proxies for a time.

This can screw over other users sometimes who are using them legitimately, but as a solution to a problem of this magnitude would go, I'd say it's definitely justified. This post might help (assuming I'm getting what you're asking right).

[Footkerchief]

Besides.  If someone is ONLY here for the Finally stuff...  When the new version comes out, you really think they're entirely unlikely to notice it, and entirely unlikely to mention it to some other friend who may have forgotten about DF and been totally cut off from the community?  You think there is NO gain to be gotten from these people?

I asked whether there's a NET gain, and I don't know the answer.  And even if the answer is no, there's only so much that can be done to identify and remove undesirables.  The most practical thing I can think of is to take community contributions into account when punishing people, which I think is already being done.

[Hawkfrost]

I'm sorry too, I tend to spiral.
But as you can see, I've stopped, and I'm making an effort to be more serious and not do any of that again.

Sorry to everyone!

[Toady One]

The only way other posters can help with that is to continue to chill out and obey forum guidelines if you have already been doing that, do that if they haven't been, and to be understanding if your proxy gets banned because it's being abused by some dipshit, I guess.  I haven't wanted to appoint moderators since that seems to build ill-will in the long run, but if there's a lot of porn spam I might have to do that just to delete the crap when Threetoe and I aren't around.

We aren't there yet though.  That SS13 guy was the first real problem in a while that couldn't be handled by a simple ban.  The rest (eg Armok) are probably just idle threats, but you never know.  I'll look at that link.  I'd hate to block legitimate people out, so I'd probably start with IP/specific server bans and move on from there -- assuming anything actually happens, of course.  I'm surprised it hasn't happened more often, since I have banned various spammers and annoying people in the past, but perhaps it takes a slight bit of know-how to initiate such an attack, or just some determination.

[chaoticag]

Sorry about the SS13 guy, I know I have done nothing wrong and couldn't do anything to stop him, whoever he is, but it still feels somehow my fault. The links function though, is blocking proxies by exploiting one of their functions, to the best of my knowledge, so it really shouldn't affect most of us. It is better than IP banning because given a sufficient number of those, the loadtimes to the forums increase.

[Rysith]

I don't want to see everything locked... I love the Bay 12 Games forums. These are my favorite "general discussion" forums on the internet, and I enjoy the community. It's been a bit since I played DF, but that's mostly due to time and hardware.

I thought we were one of the most self-moderating communities on the internet. What other forums will have a topic veer out of control, only for a single user to say "hey, we need to chill a bit" -- and people listen? Mostly.

This. I like discussing things on these forums because, as a whole, people seem remarkably mature and open to discussion. Proper spelling and grammar are used, posts normally have content, and people are polite and respectful. While I can't say that it increase my interest in DF (since I found DF before I found the forums), I can say that having a good self-moderating community like this is a great way to bring in new people, and especially to help them over the initial difficulty hump of DF.

Having a forum where people can go and say "I tried X but all my dwarves are tantruming now, can I have help?" is good, I think we can all agree. I think we can also agree that having a forum where we can discuss mods, developments, ideas for megaprojects and challenges is also good. Since both of those require an active forum, and people aren't going to want to talk about all DF, all the time, I think that having the Finally... and Other Games sections is helpful to maintaining that active, polite, friendly community. It means that the number of people who are familiar with DF who are available to discuss DF-related things is much higher than it would be otherwise.

Strong measures against repeat offenders, though, seems like a completely reasonable step to take. There is only so much that the community can do against people disrupting the forum, beyond telling people to chill out and not feeding the trolls (both of which I think we do a reasonably good job with). Appointing moderators seems like something that wouldn't build ill-will, as long as the mods were sparing and transparent in the use of their powers. Things like explaining the reasons behind any mod action, and only taking action in serious cases where community involvement hasn't worked, go a long way towards making sure that moderators are viewed favorably.

[Angellus]

With all due respect.

If you do not feel like having these forums, please post a link to a forum that you do not moderate (Like the new VN thread) and lock it.

I do feel like people will always need a moment to be weird, and the internet is the ideal spot to do so. Off course this should not mean that you get bothered (al lot) with it, which is why I suggest this way, a link to a forum where this person actually can post without problems.