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[Eagle]

Join DYNE.

Why?

Why the hell not?

[Grendus]

Urgh, they added grind caps to weapons. The 9mm beretta, best publicly available pistol, only goes to 9. I'm probably going to try a sawn off shotgun, see how high that can take me, but damn this is going to get expensive.

[jashman]

Yeah, the grind caps are a bit rough.  Ironically, I had to start using a flame chain which I was unqualified for to continue grinding.  But apparently, I can only use it to grind to 7 raw, when it's going to be my endgame weapon anyway. /facepalm

[Sir Pseudonymous]

That was something that popped up in *ideas a lot, and always got a lot of votes. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest it was probably players who had already ground up to the max voting for it, mainly, because it's a fucking horrible idea that artificially hinders lower level players, while doing absolutely nothing to mid or end game ones.

[jashman]

Well, a good portion of ideas and implementations dealing with skills/stats seem to be oriented around keeping newer characters from ever catching up, so it's not exactly surprising.

[Grendus]

Grind cap was, and remains, a decent idea. They just made them absurdly restrictive. The Beretta, a $6000 gun, only goes up to 4 raw. To grind pistols up to a usable level, I now have to find an overpriced crafter gun, pay for overpriced ammo, and grind things that either do a ton of damage or die in three shots. I think we need to petition to have the grind cap raised, nobody wanted to have to have a shiver sword to grind to 8 raw.

I think most players were thinking of mid range weapons, something in the Katana's ballpark, being the weapon you use at the grind cap. It's not a bad idea, forcing players to do more than hang out in the crack mansion all the time grinding with powergloves and forks, but poorly implemented.

I think with the new grind cap though I'm going to quit for a while. The game was a grind, you played it if you enjoyed grinding, but now they've pretty much fucked that up. They'll fix it, or the game will die, all that's left is high level PvP and with the broken grinding they won't get new players into the high levels. Either way, I have college and new DF mods to fill my time.

[Charlatan]

Well, a good portion of ideas and implementations dealing with skills/stats seem to be oriented around keeping newer characters from ever catching up, so it's not exactly surprising.

newbies today have it 1000 times easier than newbies a year ago did. for instance, you used to suffer from diminishing returns on IP gain and were allowed less pay day, meaning you could really only expect about 30 per day, and you also got less depending on raw. so, for instance, using only blades, i got could expect about 1 blades ip in a single RL month at 12 raw.

old people have zero advantages over new people unless they were old enough that they grinded their raws above 15, which applies to about two characters (neither of whom even play anymore.) in fact, when gym ip was added for mutation slots it made hours and hours of manual stat grinding that old school spergers did completely worthless (which was hilarious).

today's grinding changes are to encourage people to go out and do shit, since traditionally the best thing to do was just to go to the crack mansion with a fork and grind 15 raw on crackheads before doing anything else (because higher XP slowed IP gain too). in other words, anyone who whines about how now they only have to grind to 8 to be competitive before going out and running up XP by doing quests and slaughtering challenging monsters is wrong and quite possibly stupid.

[jashman]

Fair enough on most of your comments, I acquiesce.  I figured there were still substantial players left that had grinded their skills to 15, thus having much more unused xp leftover, thus much more in skills overall.  There isn't really a reliable source (I take the wiki with a grain of salt, what info is there) to find detailed info about the game, or the changes that have happened over time.  Most searches turn up horribly outdated info, such as old facepunch or somethingawful threads (or this thread).  So, I guess.  I don't even know if the unused xp mechanic has been around for long.

I'm still confused by the flame chain only allowing grinding to 7 raw, since everyone in my corp and the wiki pretty much agreed it was still the pve endgame whip of choice.  But not that big of deal, I can just buy 7-15 instead of 8-15.  And I still plan to grind to 7 raw with the flame chain on petty monsters, so I can start buying up to 15, thus not getting my dick supremely kicked in.  Seems to be the consensus of most people I've talked to with their respective weapons grinding, just rough on the firearms users.

As Grendus said, the idea is decent, and I'm sure it'll make more sense once refined.

[Charlatan]

there are a lot of players that grinded to 15, just not past 15. however they largely did not start getting XP until after the grind, and grinding still took XP away per IP, so they are not left with some huge amount or anything.

try flash whips for 7-8; i don't know but i'd imagine they are the last leg.

[Grendus]

The problem is not grind caps. It's that the new system forces players to use exotic weapons with low weapon skills. If we removed a lot of the limitations, namely the lack of crafters and an effective marketplace, it's not a bad plan. But between the extreme difficulty to obtain armor (good god, I've been playing for over a year and I STILL haven't found a good way to get decent gloves) and the extreme cost of viable gear it's going to be a major turn off.

A better solution would have been to put an ip grind cap on the creatures, just like the exp cap. That would have been better, actually, since it would have helped players figure out when they were ready to move on to new creatures.

[jashman]

Thanks for the responses, Charlatan.

There does seem to be quite a few crafted weapons used in grinding... hopefully it'll be a spark to stimulate crafting, rather than something that hinders the whole system.  Case in point, I went to the corp stores to find a flash whip (no blacklashes available), and found a single custom one for $40k.  I mean, I'm not going to drop that on a weapon I don't particularly want just for a single raw, just as I doubt most people would buy a shiver sword for a single raw (assuming it's the only option), if they didn't already want one.

It could just mean an effective grind cap of 7 for some weapon classes, if it stands as-is.  I'll be able to buy a few raws passed 8 once I get to 7 with unused xp, so it's not a big deal in the long run.

[Eagle]

I sell cheap Berettas and American 180s in the DYNE corp store. Ill see about making armor; chud is easiest for me to mass produce, but i can try to get some dillo gear in there too. Bling is in the pipeline, and magspikes, mort and 7.62mm ammo are all available there, along with a few stickycams. Ill see what i can do about crafting whips.

[quinnr]

So, how do you rape people?

And they lie, my orphan is 10, it says so right there!

[Grendus]

Actually no. Every character is 65+. http://hellmoo.org/wiki/index.php/Timeline. You've been cloned into a child's body, but mentally every character you'll run into is adult.

Rape is a misnomer. When you grab someone (which is considered a hostile action) the game treats it as if they allow sex from all. There are no rape specific sex actions, if you're holding an unwilling person they perform consensual sex with you until they escape your grasp.

[beorn080]

My problem is with the crafting end of it. Simply put, there is no really effective way for a crafter to get the 250k for a recipe machine by himself, and most corps either extremely restrict access to even the blueprints they make, or simply can't/won't buy one. Add in the deficit of random recipes for anything higher up, plus the large science requirements to use the machines, and you get an extremely limited ability to make anything. Now, for most of the older players, it isn't really a problem. If their a crafter, they tend to have access to their corps super pimped out crafting benches, and if their a fighter, they can make tons of cash quick and buy the supplies and get their corps crafter to make it. Add in the fact that even if a newer player takes the time to get their hands on some good armor and a decent weapon, one bad death can make you lose it all, and the older players pretty much just win fights against anyone due to high dodge, extremely good soaks, and powerful weapons/guns which can one hit most players who don't have excellent soaks in that area.

I'm not saying make combat less deadly, just open things up more for newer players. Theft, rape, and death are a part of the moo, but farming crackheads cause Lorde_Doome was bored and robbed you of all your gear so you can only kill crackheads again isn't all that fun. Cheaper sims would let people have an easier time getting more recipes, and would open up the player economy a bit.