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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???  (Read 10058 times)

darius

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2009, 12:46:43 am »

This sound like a good place to promote Linoleum.

Cross platform, general purpose, assembler speed (and fast enough to indeed do graphics very well, including stuff like realtime raytracing), easy and intuitive to use (subjective), and completely awesome in any and every way. While there is no One Language to Rule Them All, if there was one it'd be linoleum.
[/shameless plug]

And try Noctis while you're at it.
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Corona688

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2009, 10:40:32 am »

My entire JDK is 100MB. I'm not sure what you are using that invokes hundreds of MB of java, but I assure you things have gotten smaller. With the introduction of the JIT and interpreted mode, it doesn't even bother starting to compile things unless it thinks it's going to be worth it. I'm also not sure why you care about the full might being invoked, since I still get sub-100ms startup times for my JVMs. I'm sorry if I come off as somewhat defensive and abrasive, but I get annoyed at people complaining about things that have been fixed since Java 1.4 or so.
Presumably you mean you get sub-100ms load times when the VM is already running.  Well, sure.  Your car hits 60mph faster when starting from 40mph too.  I do not get sub-100ms load times for my java virtual machine.  It takes tens of seconds, and not on a slow machine either.

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For graphics rendering? I think not...
C and its descendant C++ are both general purpose languages.  Whether they are to your taste is another question, but they are general purpose languages.
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That's true, to a point, within something like "Intel Xeon x86 chips". They all support the same instructions coming in, but how they handle them internally varies quite a lot by processor family, manufacturer, etc. How much optimization you can do to the code as you compile it down can vary greatly, as well, mostly based on how much information you have about the code being executed.  In the case of the graphics example you were using, that's going to run on the graphics card
Just because you have hardware-accelerated graphics doesn't mean you're forced to use it ;)  All I am saying is, all else being equal, a different language may be a better choice than Java when writing a renderer.

Why a renderer?  Well, demos using hardware accelerated opengl were shown as examples of why java isn't slow, which I really don't think demonstrates what he thought it did.
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I apologize for interpreting your post that way, then, since it seemed like you were maligning Java for being unable to keep up with a special-purpose rendering tool.
Even special-purpose tools are written in some computer language or other, you know.  But no problem.
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As I mentioned above, I do somewhat take issue with claiming that Java is cumbersome and slow, but that's an entirely different argument.
Absolutely.
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Corona688

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2009, 11:32:37 am »

This sound like a good place to promote Linoleum.

Cross platform, general purpose, assembler speed (and fast enough to indeed do graphics very well, including stuff like realtime raytracing), easy and intuitive to use (subjective), and completely awesome in any and every way. While there is no One Language to Rule Them All, if there was one it'd be linoleum.
[/shameless plug]
Sounds quite lovely.  I've issues with the VM but then I always do.  I've long thought a VM could be so much simpler if you just let it make real system calls instead of making everything a library...
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2009, 11:59:34 am »

Linoleum
Noctis
I've got this ongoing love affair with a conceptual language I call Quad.

I shan't claim it has any merits, though, I just like the whole concept of a language that has only four possible instructions and fits into an arbitrary-sized bit-pair array.

And just you try and stop it from self-modifying, on the fly, if you're not careful. ;)
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Corona688

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2009, 12:36:19 pm »

Well, if we're descending into the turing tarpit, intercal is pretty amusing.
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jaked122

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2009, 12:54:13 pm »

Sadly Moore's Law will probably die by then.

No, it just won't be carried forward by electronic computers. It'll be optical or chemical or something.
hold your horses, an average ICU runs at the maximum voltage of about 18v... up it to 1000v and electricity pushes at about 77% of the speed of light.

Sizik

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2009, 06:44:28 pm »

It is over 9000 megahertz however.

9000 Mhz is about 8.7 Ghz.  Add two powers of ten.

No, 9000 MHz is exactly 9 GHz. You're thinking of GiHz.
No, he's right.
Computers deal with powers of 2.
1024 Hz = 1 MHz
1024 MHz = 1 GHz
1024 GHz = 1 THz

If you read carefully, I said GiHz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix

Also:
Quote from: wikipedia
Certain units are always understood as decimal even in computing contexts. For example, hertz (Hz), which is used to measure clock rates of electronic components, and bit/s, used to measure bit rate. So a 1 GHz processor performs 1000000000 clock ticks per second, a 128 kbit/s MP3 stream consumes 128,000 bits (16 kB, 15.625 KiB) per second, and a 1 Mbit/s Internet connection can transfer 1000000bits (125 kB, approx 122 KiB) per second, assuming an 8-bit byte, and no overhead.
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Corona688

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2009, 11:49:31 am »

hold your horses, an average ICU runs at the maximum voltage of about 18v...
I think you forgot a decimal point.
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Up it to 1000v and electricity pushes at about 77% of the speed of light.
Electricity can just jump straight through short distances if the voltage is high enough.  They'd have to etch the transistors much larger to withstand 1000v, which would slow them down far more just due to parasitic capacitance.  And it'd dissipate 500 times more power.  Hence the trend downwards in digital logic from 5v to 3.3v to 1.8v...
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MuonDecay

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2009, 07:26:12 am »

Sadly Moore's Law will probably die by then.

No, it just won't be carried forward by electronic computers. It'll be optical or chemical or something.
hold your horses, an average ICU runs at the maximum voltage of about 18v... up it to 1000v and electricity pushes at about 77% of the speed of light.

Electricity as a set of particles travels slower than the speed of light, but information being transmitted through wires electrically is carried by an electromagnetic wave... which travels at the speed of light.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2009, 08:16:50 am »

At speed of light in said material iirc. For Cooper its 60 or 70% of normal lightspeed. Anyway the frequence of a chip isnt that important you just need a fitting and stable oscilator. The real problem are the wire lengths, which lead to synchronisation problems as well as problems with electrical resistance canceling a signal out.
The Heat build up is also pretty big a cm² of a modern Cpu exchausts (IIRC), in a hour, as much energy as 1 m² of suns surface in a second (or something like that).
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2009, 09:10:08 am »

Electricity as a set of particles travels slower than the speed of light, but information being transmitted through wires electrically is carried by an electromagnetic wave... which travels at the speed of light.
It's all levels of abstractions, as I'm sure you're aware (especially given your forum Handle!)

First you're taught about electricity like water travelling through pipes, then you're told it isn't really like that.  You start off thinking of electricity travelling from positive to negative, then you're told it's electrons travelling from negative to positive, then you're told it's electron holes shuffling in the opposite direction, which indeed is transmitted at 'c' between shuffling electrons, but doesn't take into account the physical movement of the point charges that are interesting wave-particle hybrids and their path around the material they are flowing through, which (give or take an technical aspect) is part of what gives resistance ...

When you're learnign about superconductors you understand it differently again (starting off with Copper Pairs, etc, which involves making a latice with the positive nucleuses, more or less, given that superconductivity is sensitive to the mass of the ions, given like-for-like isotopes, and there's still a speed limit, just not an appreciable energy loss) and then when you think you know how it really is, suddenly you learn it's different still, but I'm not going into things at that level.  Depending on who you talk to, the next few levels up the "ladder of more accurate theories" get stranger or just more abstract and unprovable, anyway, and I'm probably a few years out of date and not being correct enough anyway to satisfy those with the pedants with "current  knowledge" (if you'll excuse the pun).


When I was young, I was convinced that a desne enough medium could transmit information faster than light.  After all, sound travels faster through water than through air, and faster still through an iron bar, so eventually you could create something (I suppose I was heading towards the idea of something like Neutronium) that was so dense that a push/tap at on end would produce an oupout of some kind at the other.  Of course, apart from being mildly optomistic about the availability of the material (and/or ease of handling) and of the need to overcome the immense inertia the material would possess, the fact that the transmission of 'pressure' across the interatomic (or even subatomic) gaps was limited to the universal speed limit of electromagnetic, strong, weak or even gravitational force betwixt two points did not occur to me.  Though I was also pursuing the idea of a more attainable material whose density slowed the Local Speed Of Light to below that of the Local Speed Of Sound, and that's been attained (with Bose Einstein condensates, I think it was), so I guess I wasn't entirely wrong!

 8)

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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2009, 03:07:29 pm »

Well the fastests way to transfer data would be Quantum-teleporting which has proven to be 10.000 times faster then light which could solve the sync-problem of modern chips (it also could replace many Data-transfer technologys). Quantum computing as itself *shrug* lets hope it comes soon.
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Aldaris

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2009, 03:22:28 pm »

Well the fastests way to transfer data would be Quantum-teleporting which has proven to be 10.000 times faster then light which could solve the sync-problem of modern chips (it also could replace many Data-transfer technologys). Quantum computing as itself *shrug* lets hope it comes soon.
Give it a few years beyond your estimate just to be sure, but it's probably coming, yeah.
Wasn't quantum stuff really good at pathfinding? A quantum chip on a pc would allow you to run DF at thousands of fps, that would be awesome, and allow Toady to pile on even more simulation...
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zarmazarma

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2009, 03:47:19 pm »

Well... We are reaching limits, but I'm sure we'll fix that. We're starting to see that RAM may become obsolete, as silicon has it's limits, but I'm sure we'll find away around it by the time that ever happens...

I saw in some article that intel plans on having a 12x core processor by 2012, or 2013, I don't remember.
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G-Flex

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2009, 04:27:34 pm »

Well the fastests way to transfer data would be Quantum-teleporting which has proven to be 10.000 times faster then light which could solve the sync-problem of modern chips (it also could replace many Data-transfer technologys). Quantum computing as itself *shrug* lets hope it comes soon.

Quantum-entanglement teleporting exists, but it can't be used to transport matter or energy or even information at faster-than-light speeds. I have no idea why, but this might provide some info. But basically, you can't communicate at superluminal speeds.

Granted, it's still useful.
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