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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???  (Read 10079 times)

Draco18s

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 01:50:28 am »

Also, its OVER 9000(GHz)!

Actually, it's not.  But you can have your fun.
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Yanlin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2009, 08:26:13 am »

It is over 9000 megahertz however.
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Fedor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2009, 09:23:13 am »

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« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:46:55 am by Fedor »
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MuonDecay

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2009, 09:27:35 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Holy Shit!
That's really not impressive from a practical standpoint.

Do you know how goddamned expensive it is to achieve temperatures that low? It would be cheaper to buy a mainframe or supercluster than to maintain that kind of temperature long term.
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blah28722

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2009, 10:14:53 am »

Moore's Law: Basically, processing speed and memory capacity are expected to double every 18 months.

Dwarf Fortress development: Expected to span many years, possibly decades.

In 15 years, CPU, RAM, and Video Cards would be roughly 1000 times more powerful than now.

It's a bit scary to imagine what DF could accomplish with that much processing power.
A complicating factor is the need to code and recode for new systems.  Much of the speed in recent years has come from multi-threading, which DF doesn't do.  Happily, the game is getting more graphically up to date, which helps tremendously. 

Therefore, while we can certainly expect speed increases, they're not going to fully match Moore's Law.

My current machine was built in January 2002 and was a high-end machine for its day, costing about $1750.  If I were to spend the same amount of money today, my best guess, based on reports by users of modern high-end computers on the forums, is that DF would run between three and five times faster for any given fort and settings.

That's a doubling time of between 39 and 57 months.


My source of joy doesn't come from the concept of my dwarves breaking the light barrier.

It's more of wild fantasies of a game that is beyond awesome. (Imagine what Spore could have been. Now add 5 kilobatmans of awesome to that.)

Imagine:

A game that is able to generate an entire planet, shaping the world through running rivers, volcanoes, and natural events. It seeds the world with a myriad of creatures. It simulates natural selection and creates a teeming ecosystem. It then records every action, from the birth of a new litter of sheep-wolf to the creation of a village. From these recorded stories, the game generates factions with unique cultures. The founder was fond of lizards and an adept miner, and the region filled with rocky cliffs? A civilization that lives in sheer cliff walls and traverses it by riding on giant riding lizards. An underwater race and a founder who is a bloodthirsty bonescraftsman? A pirate-fishmen nation who builds their constructions out of the bones of those who they kill.

You choose to start your game as a single adventuredwarf. You start off in a fully explorable city. You head to the keep for you first adventure. On your way there, you stop at the hall of records and you learn about the history of your faction, and its ongoing war with the elves.

After an eventful adventuring life, you accept a position as the commander of the army. You pan your camera back. You are now looking at an army, along with a larger view of the surrounding landscape. You lead your army across the continent, conquering and defeating all you see. Soon, You are a legend among your people, and an evil tale for your nation's enemies.

After being insulted by the King, you decided it was no longer time to take crap from anyone else. You stage a military coup and become the new ruler. You zoom out again. The entire empire is within sight. You are able to establish colonies, create trading relationships, and declare war. Over time, your empire becomes rich with the spoils of war, and you decide to construct a new capital to celebrate.

After organizing a large party of the most skilled craftsdwarves in your empire, you set off for the safest place for a city: the top of a volcano. You zoom your camera in and command the dwarves to start digging.

And during the entire process, the game is seamless. There are no load times between any zones and game-modes (all of which are accessible from the start).




That would be truly awesome.

I can fantasize, can't I?  :P
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cerapa

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2009, 10:17:41 am »

Blah, that would be version 1.3 I think.
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Kilo24

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2009, 11:49:22 am »

Moore's law has kept up surprisingly well from what I've heard, if you count multiple cores as the same raw computing power  of a single processor.

The problem is that we can't make anywhere near as optimal use of that power as we once did.  The numbers have just gotten too big, and safe - though less then optimal - coding practices are becoming more important, because we don't have the capacity to think as deeply through the computer's processes.  This is why Java's such a hit - inefficient as hell (it interprets code not directly as instructions to the machine but as instructions to a virtual machine, which is then broken down into a form that a computer can understand) but a lot more padded bits to stop people from poking themselves in the eye. 
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Draco18s

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2009, 11:58:58 am »

It is over 9000 megahertz however.

9000 Mhz is about 8.7 Ghz.  Add two powers of ten.
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2009, 12:03:20 pm »

What about Python then?
Safe, and optimal ???

(Well, with the right plug-ins... But...)
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Ampersand

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2009, 02:03:19 pm »

Haven't you guys seen the Quantum Processor thread yet?

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=38093.0
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Sizik

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 04:45:40 pm »

It is over 9000 megahertz however.

9000 Mhz is about 8.7 Ghz.  Add two powers of ten.

No, 9000 MHz is exactly 9 GHz. You're thinking of GiHz.
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[P]sYDoNiA

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2009, 08:03:14 pm »

What would the power requirements of a 1THz processor be?
Also, its OVER 9000(GHz)!

I just fell off my chair.
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Taritus

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2009, 09:11:43 pm »

Unfortunately, to counter Moore's Law there is another law.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_Law is the unfortunate truth to our world.
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blah28722

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2009, 09:47:50 pm »

Unfortunately, to counter Moore's Law there is another law.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_Law is the unfortunate truth to our world.

Toady is the counter to Wirth's Law.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Dwarf Fortress development + Moore's Law = ???
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2009, 10:16:21 am »

Actually Wirth was right to some extend. Many interpreter (Ruby, phyton, Javascript) and VM languages (JAVA etc.) are much slower then C which is at some points slower then Assembler.
This is not entirely the fault of the Software itself thought therefore its often enough the fault of the Programmers and Designers who prefer fast - as in Coding/design/work time  - over fast as in time the Computer needs to compute a task.
 
Its the Paradigm of cheap Energy, or for computers the paradigm of cheap Calculation power that makes them lazy. If you have it you can spend a lot of it without the need to think a second time.
If you have a good CPU you can use a A* pathing algorithm without somebody noticing it so why should you implement a lenghty stochastic Pathing algorithm?
If your Graphics-card has some gig ram and enough float processing power why should you use say a off-the-grid system to get a better graphic with less triangles and polygons if thanks to said processing power your "off the shelf low-price engine" can do the same.

At some point in the nearer Future this really gets problematic and i predict that Time and Resource efficiency becomes more important again even with Multicores and so on.

I miss the days were Milliseconds were more important then Working days.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:22:11 am by Heph »
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