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Author Topic: Ceramics and Cements: Pottery, Bricks, Mortar, Concrete, Plaster and Whitewash  (Read 8655 times)

BlckKnght

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Dwarves in DF do not use any of the many ceramic and cementing technologies that would fit in with their technology level. While some of that might simply be that they prefer carved rock construction, it seems to me that they should still be able to make pots, bricks, concrete and other similar things even if they don't like the resulting products as much as granite or obsidian (after all, they already make things out of leather and wood). I know there have been proposals and suggestions for some of these items, but I thought I'd try to get a bunch of related suggestions in one place.

The simplest change would be to add ceramic crafting to the existing kiln workshop. Clay would need to be gathered in a similar way to sand, then fired into various items, such as pots (which would work like barrels). Different kinds of clay might make different kinds of pottery, just as different regions of Earth had greatly different ceramic traditions. Glazing could also be applied to ceramics to decorate and change the color of the finished piece, in a multiple step production process.

In addition to making clay mugs, craft items and other things, clay bricks could be made and fired for use in construction (they would work just like stone blocks). Of course, the building of brick or stone walls should require mortar to hold the bricks or stones together. While a clay based mortar is possible, a better mortar would be a form of cement.

There are several cement products that could fit within DF technology. The ancient Greeks and (especially) the Romans used cement mortar and various forms of concrete in their constructions, some of which have survived for thousands of years to the present day. It should be noted that I'm talking about ancient forms of cement which are not the same as what you would get if you buy a bag of cement from a store. Modern "Portland" cement was invented in 1796 and so does not fit in with the DF technology base.

The key substance for making classical cement is lime. Lime has several forms, which modern chemistry has shown to be two different Calcium based compounds. They can both sometimes be called "lime", depending on the the context.

Calcium Oxide (CaO), known as burnt lime or quicklime, is a dry white powder. It comes from heating limestone or chalk in a kiln to dissociate Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) in those minerals. Quicklime is highly caustic and reacts strongly with water (giving off heat). It has some uses beyond cement, but probably not many that are important to DF. In DF it could be made in the already existing kiln workshop.

Calcium Hydroxcide Ca(OH)2, known as hydrated or slaked lime, is what you get when you add some water to quicklime. Depending on how much water is added, you can get either a dry white powder (which can be stored) or a wet paste. When wetted and then allowed to dry, slaked lime gradually turns back into limestone by absorbing CO2 from the air (this is why lime based cement sets). In DF, it could be made in an alchemist's workshop by combining a bag of quicklime with a bucket of water.

The simplest form of cement is slaked lime mixed with water and sand as a filler. This is still used as mortar even today, though it doesn't hold up to water as well as other formulations. This was the form of cement used in Medieval Europe when other kinds of cement were forgotten.  The common proportions for this mix were 1 part lime to 2 or 3 parts sand.

More sophisticated formulations add a "pozzolan" substance, such as volcanic ash, making the chemistry more complicated, but resulting in a cement that sets faster and holds up better to water. Pozzolans are named after the first known example, a volcanic ash called pozzolana found near mount Vesuvius (though it also occurs around other volcanoes). Volcanic ash was widely used in cement made by the Greeks and Romans. Powdered brick and other fired clay products were used as a man-made pozzolan in some Roman construction.

Pozzolanic substances contain silica (and often alumina). It brings silicon (and aluminum) into the cement in a chemically available form. They react with slaked lime to form a variety of compounds that add strength to the cement (the chemical reactions are much more complicated than in plain lime cement). Many mixtures of these cements are known as "hydraulic" because they will harden even when fully submerged in water. Some limestone deposits already include pozzolanic minerals and naturally form hydraulic cements.

Lime-Pozzolanic cement was used as as mortar by the Romans for most of their structures, especially water related civil engineering projects like aqueducts and bridges.  These cements still take a relatively long time to set fully (days to months) but less than for non-hydraulic lime cement.  It is not clear why these superior forms of cement were forgotten in Europe during the Dark Ages, given how widely the Romans used their cement technologies.

In DF, volcanic ash might be found as a new soil type near volcanoes and magma pipes.  It would need to be gathered like sand, in bags. The alchemist's workshop could have a cement-mixing job available, where slaked lime, water and sand would be combined, optionally including  volcanic ash to make hydraulic cement. The resulting product could be used as mortar for wall building, or further mixed into concrete. If it was not used after a while, it would harden into a cement block.

Concrete is made by adding an aggregate of gravel or medium sized crushed stone to cement.  The wet concrete can then be poured into wooden forms to create almost anything, including blocks, floors, whole walls, heavy tables and chairs, large doors, and all sorts of other large objects. If any of the "Realistic Mining" ideas gets implemented, there may be a great excess of scrap rock for the dwarves to get rid of, and concrete would be one positive way to use it.

Another cement product is plaster for finishing walls, both internally and externally (plaster can also be called stucco or render). Lime plaster is basically just a form of fine cement that you spread over an wall to improve it's aesthetic properties and to seal it from moisture and dirt.  In DF, plastered walls probably can't be engraved, but they could have frescoes added to them by the plasterers.

Whitewash is effectively a very thin plaster that can be applied with a brush, like paint. It is made from slaked lime and chalk. Wood and stone surfaces are easier to keep clean if they are whitewashed, but it is not a good paint for indoor living spaces because it will rub off onto anyone who touches it, making a white mess on their clothes. I'm not sure if it has any place in DF, but I'm including it in my suggestion for completeness.

Let me know what you think of these ideas. Are there additional important uses of ceramics or cements? How would adding any of these change the game around? What kinds of implementation challenges might they pose for Toady One?

One thing I like about my ideas is how they can combine well with other ideas:

For example, if digging was changed to not produce stone items (as suggested in a recently resurrected thread), concrete and brick might become important building materials. If mining gets changed in the other direction and starts producing realistically huge quantities of scrap rock, a lot of it could go into concrete production instead of just being dumped.

As another example, if tools (such as hammers and chisels) were required for civilian labor like stone carving, less tool-intensive production systems like brick and cement might be essential in forts that don't have a metal industry yet.
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HatfieldCW

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On the one hand, this make s alot of sense, but at the same time, I'd like to see this be reserved for humans rather than added in for dwarfs.

A human village won't have anywhere near the stone production or metal output that a dwarf fortress can have, and they won't have the woodworking and dope-smoking expertise of the elves, so I want them to have some kind of industry that's special to them.

Dwarves get rocks, elves get plants, I think humans should excel at dirt.  Ceramics, agriculture, mud-based architecture and pig farming would be the hallmark of craftshumans, with lots of leather and iron and wool factoring in.  Elfs can have their rope reed and wood and exotic critters, and dwarfs already kick butts with stones and magma and liquor.
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BlckKnght

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On the one hand, this make s alot of sense, but at the same time, I'd like to see this be reserved for humans rather than added in for dwarfs.
<snip>
Dwarves get rocks, elves get plants, I think humans should excel at dirt.  Ceramics, agriculture, mud-based architecture and pig farming would be the hallmark of craftshumans, with lots of leather and iron and wool factoring in.  Elfs can have their rope reed and wood and exotic critters, and dwarfs already kick butts with stones and magma and liquor.

You have a good point.  I think that it should end up the way you describe, but I'd lobby for it to be based on entity or individual preferences rather than the game simply not allowing the technology. So: you could make your dining room out of fired brick with concrete benches, but your dwarves would be much happier in one with engraved smoothed obsidian walls and thrones of carved hematite (and we all know how important elaborate dining rooms are to maintaining dwarven harmony). Perhaps some especially un-dwarven materials could even cause an unhappy thought?

I think that one of the recent dev updates had something about a new system for individual preferences, and I'd hope that could be leveraged to give elves, humans and dwarves a strong tendency to live in different ways, though a clever player could still get the dwarves to build a mud-brick ziggurat or a million clay pots or whatever.
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Silverionmox

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Balancing the tech availability comes later. I think it's more important for now to get all the production up an running; giving the races in vanilla the appropriate specialties and restrictions can come later.
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Impaler[WrG]

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I think we need to split the Mason profession into Mason and StoneCutter, StoneCutters process raw stone into items (turning big rocks into little ones) and Masons do work with cement and do any construction task involving stone and cement (turning little rocks into Big ones).

The Masons workshop would thus become the site ware cements of various types are mixed together, the batch of cement stays in the workshop and the mason then takes a bucket of it at a time to his construction site and uses it their.  Kilns would be used for the creation of quick-lime or slaked-lime as well as bricks, possibly a brick-maker profession would be added for these tasks and possibly making and/or firing pottery.  A new StoneCutter workshop would take on the functions currently done at the masons shop.
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Luke_Prowler

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I find it odd that people want to restrict what Dwarfs can do.

As for the suggestion, it's very good and well thought out. And Impaler, we already have a StoneCutter job. They're called Craftdwarfs
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Impaler[WrG]

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That's StoneCrafter, but we have separate crafters for every material such as woodcrafters and Carpenters so that's considered normal for DF.
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uttaku

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I'd like to see all this implimented, but you forgot one important aspect, kaolonite(that red rock) can be used to make china and as such would add a high value trade good to pottery as well.
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Foa

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I vote yes, Dwarves should be able to go into pottery, but it should be jobs for  two it's corresponding job types, pottery ( crafting) , and pottery ( masonry ) .

And for the Dwarf's Men, quicksand-ish traps.
For people who hate those lazy ass injured troops, plaster casts.
Adventurers, brick...
Aristocrats, fine china pottery.
War mongers, cheap weapons, and ammo.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 04:26:58 am by Foa »
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Sean Mirrsen

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How about cheap armies for generals? (esp. once magic is in)
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Grimlocke

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I forsee some problems with making the quicklime products, especialy the one using volcanic ash.

Having to find a site that has limestone and clay, as well as meeting all your other preferences would be most tedious. Especialy as most people preferr to have magma; limestone rarely occurs near magma. Chances of finding such a site are very marginal.

On the other hand, it could make sedimentary rock types more interesting, giving them something igneous sites rarely have.
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HatfieldCW

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I'm looking forward to a DF where you can't have a site with everything on it.  Import agreements would become more important than they are now, since you'd seldom be self-sufficient throughout your tech tree.  Import the ash from dwarfs who live near a volcano, and trade them limestone for it.
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BlckKnght

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I've added this suggestion to the Eternal Suggestion Voting.  If you want to see it implemented, vote for it there.

I think HatfieldCW has the right idea about not needing all the cement making supplies in one place.  Quicklime should be a tradable in bags, as should volcanic ash and sand.  So should clay and bricks, for that matter.

After making my initial post I realized that gypsum based plaster (also called plaster of Paris after large gypsum deposits near that city) is also an ancient construction technology.  Some of the interior areas of the pyramids were plastered with it. Plastered walls in modern times are more likely to be gypsum based than to be lime based (though many also have Portland cement mixed in). Gypsum plaster is softer than lime plaster, and in addition to construction, it can be used to make molds and plaster casts.
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Silverionmox

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Trading heavy bulk goods is not as straightforward as it sounds. Maybe along a river, but elsewhere? As a luxury good at most.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting story-driven fortresses, for example the king orders you to safeguard the pass of the Ravine of Seals. And you make do with what you have. Or find the tomb of Oronin the Sullen, somewhere near your arrival point. etc.

And for version 1.00, I expect the history that develops during play to be more interesting than the availability of magma.
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Footkerchief

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If mining gets changed in the other direction and starts producing realistically huge quantities of scrap rock, a lot of it could go into concrete production instead of just being dumped.

As another example, if tools (such as hammers and chisels) were required for civilian labor like stone carving, less tool-intensive production systems like brick and cement might be essential in forts that don't have a metal industry yet.
So: you could make your dining room out of fired brick with concrete benches, but your dwarves would be much happier in one with engraved smoothed obsidian walls and thrones of carved hematite (and we all know how important elaborate dining rooms are to maintaining dwarven harmony). Perhaps some especially un-dwarven materials could even cause an unhappy thought?

I like these ideas in particular a lot.

After making my initial post I realized that gypsum based plaster (also called plaster of Paris after large gypsum deposits near that city) is also an ancient construction technology.  Some of the interior areas of the pyramids were plastered with it. Plastered walls in modern times are more likely to be gypsum based than to be lime based (though many also have Portland cement mixed in). Gypsum plaster is softer than lime plaster, and in addition to construction, it can be used to make molds and plaster casts.

Incidentally, gypsum plaster casts have already been implemented for the next version, in the context of healthcare updates rather than a general ceramics overhaul.
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