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[Hyndis]

What about banishment?

Select a dwarf to be banished, but balance it out in that he will pick up a few items of gear before leaving off the map, perhaps to travel and resettle in a nearby town.

[Enzo]

What about banishment?

Select a dwarf to be banished, but balance it out in that he will pick up a few items of gear before leaving off the map, perhaps to travel and resettle in a nearby town.

Mayor : Ducim, you are exiled from the settlement of Farspear, til the end of your days!
Ducim : Why? I just got here.
Mayor : You are a soapmaker.

Although I guess the same thing would happen with executions.

[Sensei]

Don't all the drawbacks of this just make one big reason to set up 'accident rooms', which I thought the point of being able to order people assassinated, was to avoid making aforementioned illogical deathtraps?

Unless dwarves are about to get a LOT smarter, I don't see why anyone would do this when they can just have Urist McKillme drowned or cavein'd.

[Warlord255]

The problem right now is that dwarves are unable to rationalize cause of death. There are no marker tags to differentiate "killed by cave-in" from "killed by cave-in trap".

The same applies for kill orders. The dwarves can't comprehend how much you hate soapmakers.

[Sensei]

I should note, it would be very complex to find a way for the computer to accurately define accidents from deliberate kills. How can tell when you did or did not want someone to trap themselves behind a wall and starve to death, or get trapped in the drowning room, or be n the bridge when you pulled it?

And if you did, SOMEHOW, do that, you'd probably get a message like: "DAVE, NOBLE CANCELS PULL THE LEVER: CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT."

[termitehead]

The Mayor has issued a mandate:  Kill Urist McDorf

[jaked122]

Well, i do think the "kill orders" shound't be handle like "You! Guard! Kill this guy!", but more like employing an assassin. Innocent dwarves should only be killed through assassination, but criminal or ex-criminal dwarves should be susceptible to kill orders.
A way of taking some control from the player's hands and giving it back to the dwarves themselves would be assassination orders from nobles because they don't like someone, said decision taken without the player's mind being involved, he could employ an assassin to get the job done, and maybe even do it himself while no other dwarves are around (sneaking in someone's room while they sleep).
Of course, if the assassin is caught, or the noble himself, they'd be jailed or even put to death by hammering. This would give the players more noble related problems to solve like:
"O SHI- the mayor's sneaking in that dwarf's room, and he HATES him!, i better lock it before he gets himself caught".

Though this could prove to be more an annoyance then a feature.

get the butcher to say, hey, I need your help at the shop.

[ChairmanPoo]

All that needs to be done is to make sure that there are appropriate repercussions for trying to kill everybody. Running a fascist nightmare state shouldn't be easy.

It shouldn't be, but it really is. Easier than running a democratic/senate/republic state is.

and you know this because of your long years of experience as the head of a police state?

Mayor : Ducim, you are exiled from the settlement of Farspear, til the end of your days!
Ducim : Why? I just got here.
Mayor : You are a soapmaker.

Although I guess the same thing would happen with executions.

what's so bad about soapmakers, they make most excellent goblin fodder. For that matter, it's good to keep a base group of slaves doing all the no-skill-improved labor (tanning, smelting, building structures with masonry, etc...)


Anyways, I dont like this idea at all. There should be no penalty beyond getting bad thoughts, which is as it is nowadays. I dont need some complicated in-game mechanism to justify why am I throwing someone into lava. Why should I have one for this other mechanism?

[Soadreqm]

I disagree partly with this.  Historically, there's been quite a spectacle of sorts to executions and punishments.  Christians in with the lions, severing limbs for theft, shopkeepers setting up stalls around the gallows, that sort of thing.  The timeframe of DF suggests that quite a few dwarves would enjoy a watching a good grisly punishment, to show that the government is protecting them from thieves or murderers or whatever have you.  Indeed, I'd argue that the hammerer should be more likely than anyone else to love a good punishment.

Point. However, the dwarves in most fortresses are all friends with each other. There's almost no class structure. Dwarven society is sort divided to Noble, Legendary and Other, but everyone still goes to the same parties. If we get class structure, I guess the higher-class dwarves wouldn't be too shocked to see lower-class dwarves get killed for some percieved crimes.

So. Dwarves might enjoy executions, depending on personality, whether the dwarf watching knows the dwarf being executed, whether the dwarf being executed is from the same social class as the dwarf watching, and whether the dwarf being executed has actually commited some crimes. I guess if you tried killing crazy many peasants for no reason whatsoever, everyone should get a bit concerned, but things would go fine as long as you provided for them and didn't kill anyone they know or care about. And watching a close friend get the hammer for no reason whatsoever should still make a dwarf semi-permanently bitter and angry.

[Running a fascist nightmare state] shouldn't be [easy], but it really is. Easier than running a democratic/senate/republic state is.

Really? Because I was under the impression that the countries that don't treat their citizens like shit are winning at the moment. Happy people are more productive and easier to keep from breaking stuff than unhappy people.

[Kilo24]

I disagree partly with this.  Historically, there's been quite a spectacle of sorts to executions and punishments.  Christians in with the lions, severing limbs for theft, shopkeepers setting up stalls around the gallows, that sort of thing.  The timeframe of DF suggests that quite a few dwarves would enjoy a watching a good grisly punishment, to show that the government is protecting them from thieves or murderers or whatever have you.  Indeed, I'd argue that the hammerer should be more likely than anyone else to love a good punishment.

Point. However, the dwarves in most fortresses are all friends with each other. There's almost no class structure. Dwarven society is sort divided to Noble, Legendary and Other, but everyone still goes to the same parties.

Currently, anyway.  Once nobility becomes more fleshed out, exclusive parties and soapmaker-mocking will become popular pastimes for the nobles who don't have levers to pull.

If we get class structure, I guess the higher-class dwarves wouldn't be too shocked to see lower-class dwarves get killed for some percieved crimes.

And the reverse would generally be true as well, if the French Revolution is any indication.

So. Dwarves might enjoy executions, depending on personality, whether the dwarf watching knows the dwarf being executed, whether the dwarf being executed is from the same social class as the dwarf watching, and whether the dwarf being executed has actually commited some crimes. I guess if you tried killing crazy many peasants for no reason whatsoever, everyone should get a bit concerned, but things would go fine as long as you provided for them and didn't kill anyone they know or care about. And watching a close friend get the hammer for no reason whatsoever should still make a dwarf semi-permanently bitter and angry.

Hmm... it might be modeled as making a grudge towards the resident noble in power, and making a new thought of "likes/dislikes the current King/Mayor/Expedition Leader."  I can't think of too easy a way to generalize that to "likes/dislikes the current administration's policies," especially in a way that makes them want to overthrow the government or hate multiple dwarves in a way that befits each dwarf's participation in the unexplained death.  Actually, this would be a good time for the responsible dwarves to test their social skills (especially liar) to determine where the blame lies.

Revolutions would be an excellent point to start modeling peer pressure, actually.

[Slappy Moose]

AUGH! NOOOO! I wanted to have firing squads mow down rows of nobles at a time!

[ChairmanPoo]

Point. However, the dwarves in most fortresses are all friends with each other. There's almost no class structure. Dwarven society is sort divided to Noble, Legendary and Other, but everyone still goes to the same parties.

Yeah, but this is in no small measure because in most fortresses the hammerer meets an early death by accidentally pulling a lever in his room, no jail is kept, and noble mandates are happily ignored.

[Im_Sparks]

Manually selecting a dwarf to be punished (perhaps by execution) sound like a good idea, although I would think it wouldn't happen immediately, but rather that it would be an order for the appropriate noble to give the order to the guards. This in keeping with the player not having direct control over anything (but doors).

Thisthisthis.

I think guards shouldn't execute him on the spot, but bring him to the appropriate execution room.

and you know this because of your long years of experience as the head of a police state?

No, but from watching the chinese nation rise so fast on the national stage as an exploiter of human labor. They oppressed the masses in an intelligent way, and gained a hardworking, cheap source of labor from it.

[Puck]

I think we already have enough options to kill off our dwarves, but yeah, it's tricky to get em killed by OTHER dwarves. First you have to make them properly insane, but in the end... you can do it.

The level of control over this is perfectly fine in balance with the rest of the feel of the game.

I say leave it as it is.

[Protactinium]

If we get class structure, I guess the higher-class dwarves wouldn't be too shocked to see lower-class dwarves get killed for some percieved crimes.

And the reverse would generally be true as well, if the French Revolution is any indication.

Speaking of which, Happy Bastille Day! (Which is also my birthday.)