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[Neonivek]

I hope you guys are aware that Maslow's original write up of the 5th stage: Self-fulfillment

Is impossible in it of itself.

Though other people's attempts to rectify it does make a lot of sense. Basically with all your needs fulfilled you are now free to openly improve upon yourself.

Anyhow Pirates are sane people.

Though I do notice a lot of them justify their actions rather then admit fault.

Then again Philosophy does often say that people will almost never openly do what they believe is wrong unless they believe a greater good is involved.

[Goron]

I hope you guys are aware that Maslow's original write up of the 5th stage: Self-fulfillment

Is impossible in it of itself.

Though other people's attempts to rectify it does make a lot of sense. Basically with all your needs fulfilled you are now free to openly improve upon yourself.

Yes but the individual that strives for self-fulfillment is better than the one that rejects it. :-)

someone that, for example, will knowingly and willingly speed on some roads. They do not attempt to justify their actions with 'its not hurting anyone' or some other such blabber to make it right. They openly and fully admit fault and understand why (maybe not to a cop, but to themselves). That is a step towards self actualization. They have not fully reached the point of utter respect (for the law, for example), but at least they are accepting and acknowledging their actions as wrong. So no, they am not a 5, they are a 4 (in this fictional case), but are open to advancement. They have achieved the self esteem and self respect to understand and admit they are wrong. Sure, they may not act differently, but they know the truth. THats how they got to level 4 in the first place.

As Captain Hat says:

You can't justify piracy, it's illegal and there's no ethical or political way to say otherwise until you change what is classified as piracy.

So these individuals attempting to do just that: 'justify it', are inherently wrong on every level whether they like it or not. If they would only admit that, and realize they are wrong then they would be open to advancing their self character. But the single fact that they refuse to admit it, shows that they cannot climb maslow's ladder. They are stuck acting like 5 year olds and dogs on level 2 or 3.

[Captain Hat]

You can also say that anonymity can also play a large role as well. Piracy is an anonymous crime, and can also be related to the "Greater Internet F---wad theory", which states that any person given anonymity will have greatly subverted morals and commit actions that they would never consider in real life.

So while most of these people might be perfectly honest and trustworthy in the outside world, the power of the Internet lowers their moral standards.

[Goron]

You can also say that anonymity can also play a large role as well. Piracy is an anonymous crime, and can also be related to the "Greater Internet F---wad theory", which states that any person given anonymity will have greatly subverted morals and commit actions that they would never consider in real life.

So while most of these people might be perfectly honest and trustworthy in the outside world, the power of the Internet lowers their moral standards.

And this is exactly why I used reference to risk/reward burglary. Someone *cough* Puck *cough* accused my relation as 'gunwaving' and 'immature' while failing (unwilling?) to realize the underlying message.
If the risk to piracy was potentially stumbling into the wrong download and (rightfully/legally with no chance of civil or criminal suit) getting shot by an angry content owner, I am SURE piracy would become a minuscule problem.

Banks are insured, it wouldn't 'hurt me' for my bank to be robbed, so that makes it a victimless crime right? The government just prints up more money to cover costs these days- so no one suffers, right? So why don't you pirates go rob banks? because you can;t hide behind low risk high anonymity. The risk of me being in the bank, fearing my life, and shooting you with my legally owned, legally concealed firearm is too great for your liking. Therefore you don't do it. You don't want to get caught, get hurt, and/or go to jail. Not because you don't think anyone suffers, not because you don't think its wrong... its because the risk is too high. Only those that have advanced their moral compass are capable of understanding right and wrong. I feel pity for you who do not.


It is nice to see some other responsible individuals showing up in this thread, thanks cap't hat for making an appearance, I was losing faith in the b12 forum- thinking everyone was a (mentally) 12 year old punk kid with no sense of right or wrong.

[Neonivek]

It is VERY rare to find anyone who does something wrong, admits it is wrong, and doesn't justify it.

[Sordid]

Yes but the individual that strives for self-fulfillment is better than the one that rejects it. :-)

someone that, for example, will knowingly and willingly speed on some roads. They do not attempt to justify their actions with 'its not hurting anyone' or some other such blabber to make it right. They openly and fully admit fault and understand why (maybe not to a cop, but to themselves). That is a step towards self actualization. They have not fully reached the point of utter respect (for the law, for example), but at least they are accepting and acknowledging their actions as wrong. So no, they am not a 5, they are a 4 (in this fictional case), but are open to advancement. They have achieved the self esteem and self respect to understand and admit they are wrong. Sure, they may not act differently, but they know the truth. THats how they got to level 4 in the first place.

I don't think knowingly doing something illegal constitutes the same thing as acknowledging that it is wrong, since right and wrong are value judgements, whereas legal and illegal are objective statements as determined by the law.
See, what is the purpose of the law? To make you go slowly? Or to increase road safety? I'd say it's the latter, and if you knowingly go over the speed limit, that means you're aware of it and make a conscious decision to not obey it based on your own evaluation of the traffic situation. In other words, it makes you stop and think about whether or not to slow down, it alerts you to the possible danger ahead. Thus it fulfills its purpose even when you knowingly disobey it.
Of course, if you disobey it because you didn't even read the sign, then it's not doing a damn thing.

[cerapa]

You just changed the subject to the psychology of the people arguing against you. You call everyone who argues with you as being immature.

There is no actual material loss with piracy. You cant compare it to speeding on roads, as that can hurt people.

I know not to steal or kill anyone. It isnt cause Im obedient to the laws, I just know that I dont want to experience it myself when others do it.

And now you compare it to robbing a bank. I would not rob anything, even if it had no further problems. There is the little problem that it isnt really like anything else, you cant compare it to anything.

[Neonivek]

Sordid is right there

There is a difference between Right and Legal.

Though the just society should ensure that the difference between right and legal arn't too far appart.

"There is no actual material loss with piracy."

I hear that a lot. Though this only works if the people arguing against Piracy don't actually know what it is. (which is oddly common... Then again... it is common on both sides)

"now you compare it to robbing a bank."

No one is harmed when you Rob a bank unless you shoot someone.

[Sordid]

And now you compare it to robbing a bank. I would not rob anything, even if it had no further problems. There is the little problem that it isnt really like anything else, you cant compare it to anything.

How about television? Radio? They broadcast content that you, as a consumer, don't have to pay for 24/7, and indeed in their own beginnings they were demonizes as the killers of the recording and film industries. As far as I can tell, the whole hubbub around piracy is just a kneejerk reaction of an obsolete business model.

[cerapa]

Of course someone is harmed when robbing a bank. The bank loses the money. If their insured, then the insurance company loses its money.

Edit:Sordid, ads.

[Neonivek]

As far as I can tell, the whole hubbub around piracy is just a kneejerk reaction of an obsolete business model

No they got some genuin griefs about it.

The problem is that they used to be able to ignore Piracy because they could trust that anyone who would buy their products would. It isn't the case anymore and Piracy is widespread.

Along with this the increase in Piracy also coincides with many of the problems industry is facing. So by coincidence it is looking like Piracy is horrible.

The bank loses the money

No they don't lose money and neither does the insurance company.

What happens is inflation increases.

[cerapa]

Why would inflation increase? I have never heard of banks printing new money when they lose the old ones.

[Neonivek]

Why would inflation increase? I have never heard of banks printing new money when they lose the old ones.

Not even National banks?

Also oddly enough I think the same line of arguement could be made for Counterfeit money. It doesn't harm anyone unless it is found out.

[Sordid]

Edit:Sordid, ads.

Ads revenues don't go to the producers of the content, they go to the station that broadcasts them. Torrent sites have ads. So prosecuting people who download from torrent sites is like prosecuting people who listen to pirate radio stations.

The problem is that they used to be able to ignore Piracy because they could trust that anyone who would buy their products would. It isn't the case anymore and Piracy is widespread.

Yes it is. Ask Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails. They released their latest albums freely online. Want to pay? Go ahead. Don't want to? Don't have to. And it turned out to be a rather successful distribution model. Same goes for other media. Brian Clevinger wrote on his blog that he actually felt ashamed that he's making more money by giving away his comic for free on the internet than indie artists do by publishing on paper that you have to buy.

[Dr. Johbson]

For the love of god, Goron, you need to stop insulting every damn person who disagrees with you. It happens sometimes, alright? People are different, views are different. Calm down, mate.

Anyway, I'll state what I believe later so Goron here doesn't use my 'failed logic' to attack me and my families intelligence.