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Author Topic: RIP The Pirate Bay  (Read 9644 times)

cerapa

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2009, 11:33:36 am »

Goron, wrong.

Is it wrong to live in a $500,000 house when nobody has to build it?

It is wrong to take piracy as stealing, as no actual money has been lost. Unless you an see the future and see that someone would have bought it if he couldnt pirate it.
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Areyar

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2009, 11:43:40 am »

Earlier on this mudball:
After putting *a lot* of money, labor, even lifes into railways connecting every corner of the earth some jerk comes along and invents flying.

A little later RIAA declares the end of music as we know it because of the abuse of a new technology: I am talking of course about Radiostations

A little later the RIAA finds out that making the payed for product inferior to the pirated one does suprisingly not increase sales.

Bottom line: the world changes. suck it up :)

lol, and I agree with the sentiment.
But seriously your bottomline does not line up with your argument.
A better one would be "History repeats itself" or "Will they ever learn?"/"People never learn"

Change can be scary but stagnation is deadly. :)

[derail]
This is a 'Murphies Law' I thought up / remembered this midday:

"The more things change, the more things become the same."

Which I think points at the trend of chain-stores to outcompete local shops, making every shopping street in every Medioc(r)ity identical.
[/derail]
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buman

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2009, 11:54:48 am »

I few articles I've come across on tech dirt:

If Downloading A Song Is Just Like Stealing A CD, Why Won't The RIAA Allow Reselling MP3s?
from the either-it-is-or-it-isn't dept


When you hear RIAA defenders insist that an unauthorized download is "just like stealing a CD" or something along those lines, it's worth noting even they don't really mean it. After all, if a digital file really was no different than a physical goods purchase, then you'd be able to do other things with it -- such as resell it. And yet, as you read through Eliot Van Buskirk's article about new online services trying to create marketplaces for people to sell their "used" MP3s, you'll see the scenario is quite different. After all, it's perfectly legal to sell your used CDs, but now when it comes to selling used MP3s you need a record label's permission? Why? Well, because even the record labels seem to inherently know that a CD is quite different from a download. So when the RIAA claims they're the same, what they really mean is "only the stuff we like is the same."


How The Recording Industry Changes Its Own Story
from the anything-for-the-money dept


We've already discussed how silly the Performance Rights Act is -- and how it's basically an attempt by the record labels to get their own bailout courtesy of radio stations. There are all sorts of problems with it, and Jess Walker does an amazing job explaining just how ridiculous the Performance Rights Act is. In doing so, he highlights one point that is quite a common trick in the RIAA's bag of tricks, but which doesn't get enough attention: how it changes the story to flip things around to its advantage over and over and over again. Case in point: the RIAA is arguing that it needs to get royalties to performers for radio air play to "even out" the situation, since radio is the "only" platform where performers don't get royalties. For example, they point to internet radio and satellite radio, where artist do get paid.

So, the RIAA claims, this is unfair... after all, why should they get paid for all of those, but not radio?

Except, the RIAA conveniently wants us all to forget history. That's because it was the RIAA who argued that satellite radio, internet radio and other forms of broadcasting were different from terrestrial radio, and therefore required different royalty structures. In other words, the only reason why this "unfair" dichotomy exists in the first place is because the RIAA lobbied for it by claiming that satellite radio and internet radio were different.

Now it wants everyone to forget that and pretend that it's some weird "anomaly" that terrestrial radio doesn't include performance royalties? Don't buy it. This is the sort of thing the industry has pulled off for years -- pushing one country to extend copyright laws, and then moving to other countries and working up a lobbyist campaign about how that country isn't keeping up with other, more reasonable countries, concerning copyright laws. Have you noticed what's happening in Canada these days? That's a direct example of this sort of thing.

Walker also takes on other points to show how silly and dangerous the Performance Rights Act would be. It benefits no one but the record labels. It harms radio stations. It harms independent musicians. It harms big musicians as well (since most of the money doesn't go to them, but to the record labels). Who does it help? The RIAA, of course:

And for what? Imagine, as a thought experiment, that this bill were passed and, simultaneously, payola were made fully legal. Does anyone doubt that more money would flow toward the radio stations than away? Radio remains the primary means by which the music industry promotes its product. By pushing for this fee, the labels are essentially asking their advertisers to pay them for the service of selling their stuff.

Ah, you say, but what about the independent artists who don't get big promotional pushes from the major music labels? Surely they'd benefit from a new revenue stream? Actually, they'll be even worse off. The economic mission of most commercial radio stations is to deliver audiences to the sponsors whose spots are aired between tunes. So programmers have a built-in preference for music whose mass appeal has already been proven. If you increase the cost of playing a record, that just intensifies the incentive: The more you pay to play a song, the more conservative you'll be about which songs you play. The marginal cost of playing each track is the same, but the commercial payoff is greater for established artists.

Generally speaking, the more it costs to run a station, the more risk-averse it will be. That's one reason low-power and Web outlets are more experimental: They don't have as much money on the line. But those stations--the ones that go out of their way to play diverse and unfamiliar material--are precisely the ones that have the hardest time paying the song tax. The proposed law acknowledges the problem by introducing a sliding scale, with the least profitable outfits paying $500 a year. But while that may be chump change for a big broadcaster, it's a pretty big piece of the operating budget for a low-power, volunteer-run community or student station.

Nor is it the only cost the law will impose. "The record labels are completely out of touch as to how college radio stations operate," Warren Kozireski, president of College Broadcasters Inc., recently complained on his organization's website. "The extensive record keeping requirements that will be required by the Copyright Royalty Board alone will add hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to the true cost of a performance fee." It's relatively easy to do that book-keeping if you have a narrow playlist and rarely deviate from it, as is the case with most large commercial radio stations. But if you have a library of thousands of albums and 45s, many of which were never reissued on CD, and if you allow your DJs to choose which ones they play--or even to bring in still more music from their personal collections of rare soul or jazz or bluegrass or electronica obscurities--then tracking the data suddenly becomes a full-time job.

Worse yet: Though the rhetoric around the proposal focuses on the benefits to musicians, much of the money won't make it to the artists in the first place. In part that reflects the fact that the fees go not just to the performers but to the copyright owner, which frequently means the record company. But it also reflects the corruption in the industry, which legislation like this has probably abetted.


As we've seen time and time again, if the RIAA supports it, it's not good for consumers. It's not good for musicians. It's not good for anyone but a small selection of record labels. Hopefully, Congress recognizes this for the pure money grab it is and shuts it down.
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buman

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2009, 11:56:25 am »

Bailing Out The RIAA?
from the there-we-go... dept
At the Tech Policy Summit yesterday, David Carson, the General Counsel of the US Copyright Office spent a bit of time at the beginning of his talk explaining why the Performance Rights Act made sense. This is the bill that would make radio stations pay musicians (rather than just songwriters as it is now) for every song they play on the radio. The recording industry insists that it's somehow unfair that radio stations have been promoting their music for free, and Carson seems to believe their explanation 100% (which is, unfortunately, quite typical of the Copyright Office). He argued, unconvincingly, that while radio used to promote artists (the reason that stations don't need to pay musicians), it no longer does so. That makes no sense. While there are alternatives out there for promoting artists, and radio may not have the impact it once had, that hardly means that the stations aren't promoting the music.

And, of course, the most damning argument against the recording industry's demand for money here is the fact that, for decades, the industry has (illegally) had the money go in the other direction. The system of payola has shown, quite clearly, how much the recording industry values airtime, in that it's willing to pay radio stations to play its music.

So, can anyone explain why it's illegal for record labels to pay radio stations to play music, but it's okay for Congress to force radio stations to pay the record labels for playing their music? It defies common sense.

Yet, with a nice push from the Copyright Office, the bill is moving forward, and will face a full House vote. During the Committee debate over the bill, Rep. Daniel Lungren made a perfectly reasonable suggestion: why not wait until the GAO had a chance to do an economic analysis of how the bill would impact radio stations. Considering that the bill is effectively a tax on those radio stations, this seems like a perfectly reasonable idea... but it resulted in Rep. Howard Berman (who represents Hollywood, always) accusing Lungren of trying to kill the bill. Isn't it great when simply waiting to find out what kind of impact the bill might have gets you accused of trying to kill it. Apparently in Congress, it's all about shooting first and asking questions later.

That said, Peter Kafka, over at AllThingsD, has made the best point: most people don't care about this bill because they don't realize that it's really a bill to bail out the RIAA by creating a radio station tax that goes straight into the recording industry's bank accounts. So, rather than call it the Performance Rights Act, it should more accurately be called the Britney Bailout Bill.
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Puck

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2009, 11:57:23 am »

lol, there is nothing immature or ironic about insulting liars and thieves. Its a heck of a lot better response than a burglar would get at my house. I am sure you welcome my insults much more than my m&p9. I gladly offer both to thieves.
but there's a lot immaturity in that gunwaving statement as well as in the inability to tell a liar from a hypocrite.

buman

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2009, 12:13:43 pm »

As we see most of our discussion has nothing to do with actual content producers, I has to do with the "middle men" who want to collect a piece.

While this was important in the past due to huge overhead in getting your message out, nowadays there is so much more information flowing around that you can connect directly with your customers and make revenue in different avenues. Because of these middle men the artists hardly make any money of the sale of actual music and make most of their income off of concerts and other non-primary sources.

Goron has his facts mixed up in that the radios HAVE NEVER had to pay royalties on the music they play because the recording industry realized a long time ago that it is free advertising. They would even illegally pay the radiostations (yes it's against6 the law) to play premium songs over other content.

Comparing digital information to a house or a car is a fallacy because nothing is lost during the transaction, obviously if you stole a house then someone else doesn't have a house. But having an illegally downloaded song IS NOT stealing in any sense of the law. Stealing requires one party to be deprived of the good. Downloading is considered copyright infringement. This highlights how ridiculous the recent court cases are because if you had stolen a physical CD with 15 songs on it you may get community service. But you happened to download a single track then you can be sued for the unconstitutional sum of 80,000 USD.

In reality there have been multiple studies and real world experiments by artists that show their business excels when they themselves upload the songs to a torrent tracker and encourage it to be downloaded, Trent Reznor for example.

Nowadays when some people think about what it means to give something away for free its akin to dividing by zero. They shut down all reasonable thought and start screaming save the children. Just because something is free doesn't mean its the end of civilization, with changing markets its important to continually change with the times. It has even been shown that those who download songs are much more likely to pay for music, go to concerts, and generally participate more in the business then someone who doesn't.

I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:16:29 pm by buman »
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Puck

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2009, 12:23:56 pm »

I also like to remember missy elliot and that horrible song that went something along the lines of "bootleggers we're coming to break your legs".

And about a week after the release there was this mtv show "my crib" or summat. In which she showed of her hideously uglified lamborghini. While she was giggling like a little girl.

I say screw logic, screw bumans sensible arguing, screw the law, I wouldnt have any problems NOT paying for her music (but I cant stand the crap she produces, so I dont care anyway).

Goron has his facts mixed up in that the radios HAVE NEVER had to pay royalties on the music they play because the recording industry realized a long time ago that it is free advertising.
Not entirely sure how that works, but iirc that musician I used to live with got money for every time the radio stations would play one of his tunes. I'm pretty sure it was paid for by the radio stations and not somebody else. But that's europe... so... dunno, just thought I'd mention it.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:28:43 pm by Puck »
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Ampersand

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2009, 12:47:23 pm »

If someone came into my house, made perfect replicas of all my stuff, and took the replicas, I wouldn't give a crap.
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Goron

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2009, 12:50:28 pm »

buman, please indicate where I wrote anything against musicians (or entitled people) sharing their music with the populace for free? If that is the business model a musician wishes to take, then they are free to do so. Just like Toad develops DF and distributed it free (with optional donation), anyone may do the same. The point is, when the content producer DOES NOT take that avenue of distribution that choice should be respected.
A musician is free to waive royalties to radio stations if they choose to do so, a musician is free to give free cds out on street corners if they choose to do so. They are entitled to distribute their copyrighted material as they please. You, me, and the random guy down the street are NOT entitled to distributed their copyrighted material as we please.
Thats like claiming "I shouldn't be held accountable for the grand theft auto I just executed, because the car manufacturer gave out a free car yesterday to someone, therefore it is OK for me to get them free too"

The possible benefits and or gains an artist gets from piracy are irrelevant to the issue. If they really want those benefits, they can distribute the content freely themselves, or modify the copyright to allow others to do it for them, or license the copyright or take many other options that can legally achieve the same effect. Want to cut that middle man out? Then the artist can make their own damn website and sell music direct- in that case your argument that the middleman is the only loser fails, because the artist would be the sole beneficiary.

You can continue trying to justify illegal actions all you want. But no matter what your point is invalid- the law says it is illegal. Lobby your government and vote if you want that changed. Only then, will I have respect for any argument about how 'its not stealing and it doesn't hurt anyone'.

Goron, wrong.

Is it wrong to live in a $500,000 house when nobody has to build it?

It is wrong to take piracy as stealing, as no actual money has been lost. Unless you an see the future and see that someone would have bought it if he couldnt pirate it.
lol...
This is the wrongful thinking people go through in piracy- they like to justify their actions with 'I would not have bought it anyways'... or 'its not like I am taking something away from someone else'... Both those lines of thought show how low the originators are on Maslow's scale, barely beyond level 2; incapable of feeling strong self-esteem, respect for others, or morality.

Goron

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2009, 12:51:48 pm »

If someone came into my house, made perfect replicas of all my stuff, and took the replicas, I wouldn't give a crap.
but then your 'stuff' loses value. All of a sudden your credit rating falls to shambles because you do not have collateral to back it up. Good luck financing anything in your life.


EDIT:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529692,00.html
Quote
Swedish Music Pirates Make Millions in Jail

Wednesday, July 01, 2009

RT
ADVERTISEMENT

STOCKHOLM  —
A little-known Swedish software firm has snapped up file-sharing website The Pirate Bay with the hope of turning the source of legal controversy into a money-spinner that appeals to both users and content providers.

Global Gaming Factory X AB, which operates Internet cafes and provides software, said Tuesday that it had agreed to buy Pirate Bay for 60 million Swedish crowns ($7.7 million).

The website made world headlines in April when the three Swedish founders and a financial backer were each sentenced to one year in jail and ordered to pay a combined $3.6 million in damages for breaching copyright law with the free downloading site, which was one of the biggest sites of its kind on the Internet.

• Click here for FOXNews.com's Personal Technology Center.

• Got tech questions? Ask our experts at FoxNews.com's Tech Q&A.

Swedish News Agency TT cited one of the founders, Peter Sunde, as saying that the money would not go directly to him or any of the others sentenced in April.

Sunde told TT that the money would be placed in a company outside Swedish borders and it would be used for Internet projects other than downloading sites.

Pirate Bay could not be immediately reached for comment.

Global Gaming said it believed the website was a viable business with its plans for a new, legal business model.

"We would like to introduce (business) models which entail that content providers and copyright owners get paid for content that is downloaded via the site," the company said in a statement.

USERS AS EARNERS

Global Gaming Chief Executive Hans Pandeya told a news conference that the revamped website would generate money via advertising, supplying storage space and helping telecom operators optimize Internet traffic.

He also said users would be able to earn money by supplying storage space, which would encourage people to use the site.

"That's what is interesting. If you can earn money by file-sharing, it's no big deal to pay for what you download," Pandeya said.

Analysts were unimpressed by the move, comparing it to Napster, an online file-sharing site that quickly lost popularity after it started to charge its users.

"It looks like they are going to Napsterize it," said Leigh Ellis, intellectual property partner at Gillhams Solicitors.

Mark Mulligan, vice president at research firm Forrester, said that many of Pirate Bay's around 20 million users would move on to other free downloading options.

"The bottom line is that most people who use file-sharing networks use it because it's free. They are not likely to start paying just because the owners have a new business model," he said.

"There has not yet been a single example of a legal file-sharing network which has made a successful transition to a legal business."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:57:38 pm by Goron »
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Neonivek

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2009, 01:10:59 pm »

Goodness all this news makes me wish I was socially irresponsible and created a site that caused billions of dollars in damages to other companies putting people on the street so that they would pay me millions of dollars to stop.

But nooooOooo...
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Jreengus

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2009, 01:12:16 pm »

Maslow's scale
Has what do do with this discussion, 5 minutes on wikipedia tell me apparently he did a study which showed the order in which human beings fulfil their needs/desires and it seems to have nothing to do with your argument.
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cerapa

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2009, 01:21:08 pm »

If someone came into my house, made perfect replicas of all my stuff, and took the replicas, I wouldn't give a crap.
but then your 'stuff' loses value. All of a sudden your credit rating falls to shambles because you do not have collateral to back it up. Good luck financing anything in your life.
What? Nothing happens!
Why would you lose collateral?

And it isnt wrongful thinking. You are just talking crap. The "justification" is the truth.
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Captain Hat

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2009, 01:28:06 pm »

You can't justify piracy, it's illegal and there's no ethical or political way to say otherwise until you change what is classified as piracy. Filesharing is not illegal, filesharing, like EVERYTHING, is a means of performing an illegal action.

What doesn't stop people from piracy is the fact that it's one the easiest and safest crimes to commit, and very few people ever have to answer for it. You also don't have to pay for any part of the process, except perhaps the cost of your computer. It's not like you're having to go through a bunch of black market dealers to get this.

People have different reasons for their piracy. But probably the most obvious one is that it's free and damn easy. Some people don't want to have to deal with the BS DRM that most companies put on their products nowadays to fail to avert piracy. In a similar vein, people don't want to have to deal with a lower quality, controlling product, when a better and non-interfering one is
available. Some people just don't want to pay for anything.

So we can see that some of the blame falls upon the companies, but the consumer is to blame as well. While some may start out pirating because they don't want to deal with restrictions, the company who makes the product runs the risk of losing the customer forever as that person is no longer trusting of the company and feels no need to support a company that would push something on them that would try to control how they use the product.

It's mostly a struggle of control. Consumers want to be able to do as they wish with the product they receive, because they paid money to own it. Companies want the consumer to keep buying things, and letting them use a product as they wish would cut into them buying a similar product again (Sort of like how Blizzard said that there was going to be no LAN support in Starcraft 2, if you've noticed just how long the first one is lasting).

TL;DR: Piracy is illegal, blah blah, but companies need to lighten up and consumers need to lobby the company instead of cutting it up in a hex editor and distributing it over the web, blah blah, it's a blasted mess and hardly anyone is right, including me, blah blah blah.



Goron

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Re: RIP The Pirate Bay
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2009, 01:28:26 pm »

Maslow's scale
Has what do do with this discussion, 5 minutes on wikipedia tell me apparently he did a study which showed the order in which human beings fulfil their needs/desires and it seems to have nothing to do with your argument.
I just checked the wiki article and what they have seemed to make plenty of sense.

This is the wrongful thinking people go through in piracy- they like to justify their actions with 'I would not have bought it anyways'... or 'its not like I am taking something away from someone else'... Both those lines of thought show how low the originators are on Maslow's scale, barely beyond level 2; incapable of feeling strong self-esteem, respect for others, or morality.

I am stating that individuals that justify their actions as so, are not fully developed beyond a 2 on Maslow's scale. They have not yet begun to develop the values of respect, self-esteem, morality, or logic (looking at the wiki article, it seems I should be referencing these individuals are stuck at level 3).

As such they do not understand an appreciation for the accomplishments of others and do not/would not respect those accomplishments anyways. They are only thinking about the most basic needs, their own pleasure and fun, while not considering those around them. To top it off, when presented with factual logic that their actions are wrong they dismiss it as arbitrary labels rather than logical and moral behavior.

If someone came into my house, made perfect replicas of all my stuff, and took the replicas, I wouldn't give a crap.
but then your 'stuff' loses value. All of a sudden your credit rating falls to shambles because you do not have collateral to back it up. Good luck financing anything in your life.
What? Nothing happens!
Why would you lose collateral?

And it isnt wrongful thinking. You are just talking crap. The "justification" is the truth.
I am going to take a stab and assume you are no older than 22. If I am wrong I apologize. If I am right, I will tell you to wait until you are a little older, then you may realize how 'I have more than you,' greed, and accomplishment rule a (somewhat) free economy.
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