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[gamefreak1]

alright lets stop derailing the tread before you all get banned.

[Neonivek]

alright lets stop derailing the tread before you all get banned.

Is this really derailing? I thought this was all on topic.

[cerapa]

alright lets stop derailing the tread before you all get banned.

This is a perfectly on-topic discussion that discusses things heavily related to piratebay.

[Goron]

Because they're using an obsolete business model.

This is amusing me... I've got to come back to it:

obsolete how? Obsolete because you declare it so? Obsolete because by claiming it is, you can justify illegal activity?
Obsolete in the sense that near every single industry in the world follows it (someone implements idea, someone produces implementation, someone distributes implementation, everyone gets paid)?

Please, explain how this widely accepted and common industry model is obsolete?

And, even so, whether something is 'declared obsolete by the mighty Sordid', that does not justify illegal or illicit activity. There are many obsolete laws on the books in pretty much every country, yet I do not see you disobeying and justifying them because they are obsolete.

[Goron]

alright lets stop derailing the tread before you all get banned.

Is this really derailing? I thought this was all on topic.

alright lets stop derailing the tread before you all get banned.

This is a perfectly on-topic discussion that discusses things heavily related to piratebay.

I will give gamefreak the benefit of the doubt and provide exhibit A below; perhapse by 'everyone' gamefreak just meant those advocating and defending piracy and other illegal actions
Thank god Toad doesn't support piracy on his forums... otherwise I'd feel dirty being here.

Get the "full demo", you'll know exactly what the game is.

Can't find it, that's why i'm asking.

This thread has entered dangerous territory for me on account of this exchange.  I don't think the conversations about piracy in general terms are a liability for me, but if they lead to this sort of thing, I'm going to have to clamp down harder.  I'll assume that Asehujiko didn't read up the thread for SM's explanation of "full demo", although I suppose the "or otherwise" doesn't sound good.  I don't have an excuse for Sean, but I'll let it slide once.  I don't really have any idea of what's worse for me, legally speaking, but having public incitement of piracy and inquiries about the location of pirated games here aren't good for me.

In any case, there will be no further warnings here, and no warnings for anybody in the case that people start posting links, just permanent bans, regardless of how long you've been here, so please be careful.  I can't allow this forum to become a platform for criminal activity, not just for my own livelihood, but for everyone who likes to come here.

[cerapa]

Because they're using an obsolete business model.

This is amusing me... I've got to come back to it:

obsolete how? Obsolete because you declare it so? Obsolete because by claiming it is, you can justify illegal activity?
Obsolete in the sense that near every single industry in the world follows it (someone implements idea, someone produces implementation, someone distributes implementation, everyone gets paid)?

Please, explain how this widely accepted and common industry model is obsolete?

And, even so, whether something is 'declared obsolete by the mighty Sordid', that does not justify illegal or illicit activity. There are many obsolete laws on the books in pretty much every country, yet I do not see you disobeying and justifying them because they are obsolete.

A donation based system can get much larger amounts of money. For example, Im fairly certain that many members here have donated the sum of several purchases. A donation based system also helps in the ongoing development of a game and that the makers only get payed when the actual product is good.

[Darkone]

I've got one thing to say before anything else: Enough double posting. The edit button is there for a reason. The "insert quote" buttons are there for a reason. Its annoying, and can be avoided with no effort at all.

Practically, most people who pirate a game are either pirating it because: A. They want to try it, not some cut down demo that gives you no content whatsoever, or test if their system can satisfactorily run the game.  B. They want to play with friends, but don't know these people in real life, so they can't just borrow their CD (more like DVD, but thats another rant) for 5 minutes. C. They want to play something they can't afford. Given the cost of new modern games, this is fairly common. 
Very few people pirate games just because they don't FEEL like paying for it. Partially, because many people will buy something they like, to support it, if they get money. Partially because pirated games rarely have all the content of a full game with a legit key- you can't play online without one. If anyone can come up with some statistics that say I'm wrong, go ahead and post them. Otherwise, I can base this simply on personal experience with people online, and their reasons for pirating things.

[Sowelu]

I'm not sure who I have less respect for:  Pirates, or people who insist on comparing digital piracy to stealing real-world goods.

Let's say some kid in high school manages to find a copy of Autocad, plays with it for a couple weeks, then deletes it.  That software costs thousands of dollars!  His actions--personally, just him alone--didn't hurt the company at all.  Not one bit.  I won't argue that he benefitted them, like some might (hey, he's at least a little trained in their software)...but nobody lost anything, and you KNOW he wasn't going to be a customer.

OTOH, if that kid were to swipe physical equipment of equal value from some architectural firm?  Oh yeah you bet there's damage.  Grand theft.

Sometimes piracy causes harm, maybe even 'more often than not', but NOT in all cases, and usually it's not in line with the value of what was pirated.  Usually the harm is much less.  The "lack of harm" in piracy isn't even comparable to "what if I stole it then put it back".  There's *ZERO* chance that a kid is going to buy thousand-dollar software, he denies nobody of anything.  There's way less harm from a kid pirating thousand-dollar software than from that same kid pirating a $5 bargain-bin game.


Goron, that whole thing about "Subversive elements are making my family HATE ME" and "Pirates are duplicating my car and making the bank lower my credit"?  That, uh.  That was like reading Time Cube.  I'm just saying...keeping your arguments short and concise and relevant might not be a BAD thing...

[Captain Hat]

It's because most developers and distributors now of days are a bunch of lazy assholes who focus too much on the rule of cool, and sex.

then don't buy, play, or advocate their product. I can assure you that if a majority of the playerbase agrees with your sentiment that the game developers and distributors will change ways.

Except... Nowadays, developers are trying to appeal to everyone, not just the gamer. It's no longer about creating a game that's unique or does something really well, it's about getting everyone to play, and excuse me for sounding elitist, but that tends to turn things into crap.

A few hundred gamers from the 90's pouting won't get a company to change, when over 9000 thirteen year olds and frat boys are eating this crap up.

[Darkone]

A few hundred gamers from the 90's pouting won't get a company to change, when over 9000 thirteen year olds and frat boys are eating this crap up.

Hah, you make me feel old. I remember when us 90 borns were the little kids, and it was the 80 borns who were mature and well developed 

[Sowelu]

Bring back Zork and Starflight!  *shakes cane*

[Goron]

[...snip...]

One, you never answered the question about how the current system is obsolete.

two:

A donation based system can get much larger amounts of money.

... umm, wow... are you kidding? You are kidding right? ...

three:

For example, Im fairly certain that many members here have donated the sum of several purchases.

I am willing to bet you whatever sum of money you want that: DF has been uniquely downloaded by more people than it has generated donation revenue worth. Meaning, that for every unique new download (even disqualifying repeat downloads form new versions) there is not a donation to back it up(even if the game was valued at say, 10 bucks). More people download and play than donate.

A donation based system also helps in the ongoing development of a game and that the makers only get payed when the actual product is good.

Game makers only get paid by me when their product is good. I don't play bad games.

Look how mount and blade did it. They sold copies of their game during development. When the final version came out, you didn't need to buy it if you already bought a discounted development version. They financed their development through sales.

Let's say some kid in high school manages to find a copy of Autocad, plays with it for a couple weeks, then deletes it.  That software costs thousands of dollars!  His actions--personally, just him alone--didn't hurt the company at all.  Not one bit.  I won't argue that he benefitted them, like some might (hey, he's at least a little trained in their software)...but nobody lost anything, and you KNOW he wasn't going to be a customer.

Thats why autocad produces discount student versions and academic versions. Same goes for all of the 'productivity' software. Because in these cases, that preliminary training DOES benefit the software company. The more students coming out of academia with experience with their product the more likely their product will be adopted and use din industry. But point is, those discount versions are sold cheap (or sometimes practically given away) at the discretion of the software company! Not the kid.

I had legal exposure to autocad, 3dstudio, photoshop, among other products during high school. I am sure a majority of posters born after 1970 did too during high school. So why would that high school student need to pirate that stuff?

During college I bought a metric crap load of 'expensive' software at super discounted student prices. All legal, all full versions (with stipulation they are not used for commercial purposes). Again, no need to pirate it.

[Sowelu]

Hey, the only point I'm trying to argue is that piracy is not the same as material theft.  Not that it's not wrong.

[Soulwynd]

A few hundred gamers from the 90's pouting won't get a company to change, when over 9000 thirteen year olds and frat boys are eating this crap up.

Hah, you make me feel old. I remember when us 90 borns were the little kids, and it was the 80 borns who were mature and well developed 

Yeah, this whole thread makes me feel old, not that I'm the oldest around here, but I'm probably close to that.

Makes me feel a bit tired too.

It's the kind of thread that makes you want to sit back and watch tv while drinking a cup of coffee.

[Sordid]

So, is that justification for shoplifting? There are still people that buy the retail goods, and the store is still generating a profit as the sales cover the losses from shoplifting, therefore you claim the shoplifting is OK?

With shoplifting you actually take stuff away. When you make a copy, nothing is missing. Apples and oranges, been explained a million times over, and still people put up this straw man. Nobody's buying it, nobody's biting. Stick it in your backside and light it on fire already.

obsolete how? Obsolete because you declare it so? Obsolete because by claiming it is, you can justify illegal activity?
Obsolete in the sense that near every single industry in the world follows it (someone implements idea, someone produces implementation, someone distributes implementation, everyone gets paid)?

Please, explain how this widely accepted and common industry model is obsolete?

Another straw man, I'm not talking about other industries. Other industries have to stick to that model because no other industry can replicate and distribute its products at nearly zero cost.

And, even so, whether something is 'declared obsolete by the mighty Sordid', that does not justify illegal or illicit activity. There are many obsolete laws on the books in pretty much every country, yet I do not see you disobeying and justifying them because they are obsolete.

You're right, it's the other way around. It's the fact that a law is disobeyed that makes it obsolete. Laws are here for us, not the other way around. Look at history. Every major change in the legal structure was preceded by people revolting against the status quo en masse. The status quo considers such a revolt unlawful, but cannot withstand it and crumbles, and the new order considers the revolt to be righeous and praiseworthy. Or the old one prevails and the protestors are convicted and put away. We'll see where this current situation goes, but I'm hopeful.