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[Arrogancy]

Howdy.

I love building games and fantasy games, and when I found out about DF, I was thrilled.  Dungeon Keeper II and the like were always my favorites, and I thought I'd found a real gem here.  But then I tried to start playing.

Ow.

The game, even with the wiki, is really hard to get into.  I found myself unsure of what I was supposed to do or how to interact with the interface.  Right from the start I was asked to make a really huge number of choices, and I didn't know what to do at all.  Even after reading the wiki I'm still not sure what's going on.

I think the first-time user experience could really be improved by introducing the complexity gradually.  Look at games like Civ IV, Dungeon Keeper II and Starcraft.  At the start of a Civ game, you have a very small number of choices, whereas DK2 and Starcraft start off with low-tech-tree, simple levels.

How to do this?  I don't know.  The options seem to be a tutorial, or changing the way DF2 starts.  Maybe some combination-- like a "tips" introduction for new players.  Some testing of the user interface would probably also help, but that's obviously expensive.

[Byakugan01]

There isn't even a DF1 yet. The game isn't complete, give Toady time to smooth things out. Improving the interface is one of the things he is working on, last time I checked. The game's still in Alpha, you know.

As for some tips, there's an article called your first fortress. Give it a read, helped me big time. As far as I'm concerned, by the way, b, d, and v are the three most important keys. b for choosing what furniture/buildings to place and where to place them, d for designating areas to mine/gather wood/gather plants/anything else in that menu, and v for looking at dwarves, their stats, their jobs, and their skill levels as well as changing their jobs. By the way, if you are using a laptop then you'll need to alter the key bindings. There's an article in the wiki on that, and it's very straightforward.

Edit: You should also keep in mind that DF is a completely different game from any of those three you mention. Star craft is an RTS, DK 2 is a dungeon sim, and I don't know what Civ IV is but it sounds like another RTS to me. DF is *NOT* an RTS, it's a fantasy simulator which places you in charge of a group of dwarves and making sure that their needs are met as you deal with various threats and wonders you encounter.

[assimilateur]

Look at games like Civ IV, Dungeon Keeper II and Starcraft.

No thanks.

[Derakon]

Let's not be needlessly hostile, guys.

I agree that the game is hard to get into. It has a steep learning curve, and it'd be nice if there were some way to mitigate that. However, I don't know what the right way is.

 * Having a tutorial in-game isn't feasible because it requires time from Toady, who has much more important stuff to work on. Any player can write a tutorial; that's why there's tutorials on the wiki that (anyone can edit). Obviously the wiki isn't as accessible as the game itself, but given the choice here (have an in-game tutorial, which Toady must keep updated as he adds new features (and the game is nowhere near completion, by the way), or have a player-written tutorial), the choice is clear.
 * Limiting the player's choices at the beginning of the game is just that -- limiting. It basically equates to forcing players not to do certain things, and much of DF's fun comes from the sheer number of things you can do. If you want to embark and immediately set your mason to making statues 24/7, you can do that. Or bring seven miners and a hoard of food and just spend all your time mining. And so on. Now, it might be worthwhile to tell new players "You probably want to set up a farm", but then we're getting back into tutorials.

As for improving the UI, that's generally being delayed until Toady's confident that he won't have to make drastic changes to it. Given the scope of DF, that basically translates to "the UI will not improve in the forseeable future".

[Idiom]

Having a tutorial in-game isn't feasible because it requires time from Toady

Actually, I recall pleas to allow the running of 3rd party scripts which would allow the fans to make scenarios and tutorials. That I would like.

Limiting the player's choices at the beginning of the game is just that -- limiting.

I would hate the starcraft approach of spending half an hour on prerequisites when the resources are laying around right there right now, yes. However, I think the OP still has a point that the focus on essential things is not focused enough. But this is what the wiki is for. A scripted tutorial[ s] by fan[ s] could do this as well. Nudge nudge.

As for improving the UI, that's...

...a WIP by fans. We already have realtime 3D displays of the gameworld, we just need dedicated fan developers to work on the 3rd party viewers. There's like four half-finished ones laying around. I believe we deemed input into the game from these perfectly possible, just no-one has really gotten around to it or are still working on it.

EDIT: Looks like it will be awhile.

I speak caution largely because a listener program is, as I said, a hack.  On top of that, it is an interface hack for an ASCII art game that is only on version 0.40, and still full of bugs/gameplay features that could change at any time, and alter how the augmented interface should be designed.  As groovy as it could be, it is most likely a challenge that no one, including myself, would expect to be as hard as it actually is.  Good interfaces always are.

[Derakon]

Agh, accidentally double-posted instead of editing. See the post below for the "fixed" version.

[Derakon]

Having a tutorial in-game isn't feasible because it requires time from Toady

Actually, I recall pleas to allow the running of 3rd party scripts which would allow the fans to make scenarios and tutorials. That I would like.

Given that Toady's pretty adamantly against adding this, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

As for improving the UI, that's...

...a WIP by fans. We already have realtime 3D displays of the gameworld, we just need dedicated fan developers to work on the 3rd party viewers. There's like four half-finished ones laying around. I believe we deemed input into the game from these perfectly possible, just no-one has really gotten around to it or are still working on it.

Dunno what these "realtime 3D displays" are that you're talking about, but as you noted with your own quotation, anything that relies on examining the memory of another running program is going to be incredibly hard to program.

Face it, Toady doesn't like giving lots of power to third-party developers, which means that, at least for the forseeable future, scripting, alternate interfaces, and all that is not going to happen.

[JohnieRWilkins]

Look at games like Civ IV, Dungeon Keeper II and Starcraft.

No thanks.

how witty of you

Is there still a 2d fortress version floating around? If so then that is the perfect version to get acquainted with.

[assimilateur]

how witty of you

Sorry, but the prospect of the devs taking any inspiration from lowest common denominator shit like Starcraft or DK2 is scary*. Maybe I should have expounded on that point instead of posting something that might be construed as making fun of the OP, as that wasn't my intention.


* Disclaimer: I'm not saying either of those games are bad, just that the tech-tree BS in those (and many other) games is so silly that it makes your head spin if you stop and consider it. Such a way of "limiting a player's choices" is the last thing I want to see in DF, and it doesn't look as though I'm alone in that sentiment.

[DanielLC]

On the wiki there are links to three IRCs. I suggest using one of those. That's what I did.

[Granite26]

One good, cheap, easy fix would be to start distributing the game with a pre-built world with a pre-build fortress that will run for a year or two without help.

A good way to simulate this is to dig out the fort, set things up and save the game.  New players could just load the existing game, and tutorials written about the existing game could include things like where there is known to be gold.

[AngryToad]

Following the 'Your First Fortress' guide to the letter helps to get you into the game, and then experimenting is the only real way to get anything done.

It is hard to get into, but it should get easier with things like the the Presentation Arc.

[Normandy]

Well, the fact that millions of people have not only picked up the game of starcraft, but learned how to play it at a pro-level should be some indication of how intuitive it is, which is the OP's case in using these examples. I don't see how 'limiting a beginner's choices' translates into 'limiting everyone's choices'.

A prepackaged savegame would be great. Any discussion on how to go about it, though? I mean most people on this forum could get a good fortress up and running, but what should/shouldn't be included?

I personally think there should be two or three savegames, all using vanilla DF, with content as follows;

1st savegame:
-Fortress in forested area (no mountains)
-Dirt fortress
-~15 population
+5 to 6 rooms
 -Trader Depot
 -Dining Hall (and/or Food Stockpile)
 -Barracks (For sleeping)
 -Farm Plot
 -Food Processing Room (brewery, kitchen)
 -Workshops (and/or Wood Stockpile)
-No multi-level industries (e.g. no farmer's workshop)

2nd savegame:
-Fortress in mountainous area
-Mostly dirt, but certain rooms in stone
-~35 population
+9 to 10 rooms (not counting personal rooms)
 -Trader Depot
 -Dining Hall
 -Barracks (this time for military)
 -Personal Rooms (e.g. bedrooms)
 -Noble Rooms (sheriff, manager, etc...)
 -Farm Plots (still in dirt)
 -Food Processing Room
 -Workshops
-Some multi-level industries (e.g. Plant Processing (not cloth), Bonecrafting+Fishing)

3rd savegame:
-Mostly mountainous fort
-Nearly everything dug in stone
-~80 population
-Irrigation, traps, etc...
-Mechanics
-Full-scale industries (cloth, metal)

[SolarShado]

i duno if the third save is necessary, i think a few links to the DFMA would do nicely to show what a mature fort looks like.

The biggest issue that i see is deciding who gets to make the saves...

[assimilateur]

I don't see how 'limiting a beginner's choices' translates into 'limiting everyone's choices'.

I thought that Starcraft's way of "limiting choices" consisted of a tech-tree, which not only limits everyone but is completely ridiculous in its own right.

As to your (and Granite's) suggestion of "tutorial" save games, I think http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/02/09/the-complete-and-utter-newby-tutorial-for-dwarf-fortress-part-1-wtf/ sort of takes care of that business without giving more work to the devs.