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Author Topic: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.  (Read 7399 times)

Starver

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2009, 11:37:26 am »

Parallel World. What I hate, HATE is that people thing parallel words can only made by a choice or a decision. If the point of a parallel universe is that it is DIFFERENT from ours, then image a universe that is exactly the same as ours in all respects. Everything, but one tiny atom, which for a fraction of second vibrates slightly differently, but then goes back to being the same as ours.

Superficially it's the same, except for this one action and this one point of time. Then image this happens for each atom, in each possible point of time, then you start taking combinations of atoms and they start vibrating and as you can see there is all ready going to be an infinite amount of universes which LOOK EXACTLY LIKE OURS!
Don't forget that a parallel universe that is exactly (FCVO...) the same as ours might as well be ours if we can't compare the two.  Which (in leiu of a 'metaverse' analysis[1]) means that you need to have Joe Bloggs(x) from Universe A(x) jumpinging into Universe A(y) looking at the change.  And to maintain the (other than the theoretical minor change in that atom) exactness Joe Bloggs(y) would either need to visit Universe A(x) (in which case it would help if the universes together formed a rotationally-symmetric pair) or in turn visit Universe A(z) (consider a stack of universes each being different by just one atom[2]), unless that one atom change is the cause/inhibiter of the cross-plane jump.



Personally, I tend to go for the idea that while any particular Universe (and we only have proof of there being one) cannot by its own efforts infinitely accurately determine its own future (either of the whole or a sub-section) in any way that can precursor its own inevitable prosession through the 't' dimension (and, of course, with the problem of possibly changing that result due to the intersection of the causality/light-cones of both analysed and analysing regions), if one were to take account of sub Planck-length and Planck-time information that is extant and definite but irretrivable/untouchable behind the fogs forecast by Heisenburg and Schrodinger... <pauses for breath in a long and complicated sentence> ...then we woud see a purely deterministic universe, one outcome flowing out of each prior universal state and thus a complete lack of free will, randomness and all of Quantum wierdness explained away as the abstraction of unknown but definite sub-Planck oscillations expressing themselves in the micro and macro appearance of the universe.

Of course, with only the most basic of abstractions being apparent to the 'constructs' that are our consciosnesses (e.g. "a ball that is falling will continue falling in a definable way until it hits something solid, or perhaps deflected by the flow of a fluid") the mind's eye (which is not a simulcra sitting in the 'pilot seat' of one's brain, but an almost literal 'afterthought' of group dynamic of one's mind[3]) is mroe or less forced by all physical laws to follow procedural 'conclusions' about the universe's (and each individual's) capability for free will, due to the complete

Personally, I (or at least the complex waveform which is best identified by the term 'I') tend think in terms of complete determinism[4].  But of course I was always going to think that, just as you (or at least the 'you' waveform!) were always going to 'think' your own 'thoughts', quite possibly including the "What on Earth is he talking about?" meme. :)


[1] And if you can get a metaverse analysis of a universe, then the metaverse can safely be assumed to handle all the "getting enough information to predict the future" issue, even if it's just by subcontracting the calculations to various other universes in its domain like in a metaverse-scale server farm/SETI@Home type thing. ;)

[2] But not necessarily the same one atom during the same single period of 'differentness'.  Universe A
  • and Universe A[z] might differ by two atoms/two different sets of wobbles.  Travel far enough along the line of Universe As and you find that Universe A(Theta) and Universe A(Gimel) are very different, and both different from Universe A(Edd).   If the whole series ends up meeting itself, across infinity, there may be the same situation as the breeding combinations of related Gulls around the northern hemisphere, there being a discontinuity of compatibility at one point. ;))
  • [3] Which may or may not be effectively confined to the physical matter of the brain/body.  Some people (not me) contend that 'mind' extends to the physical world beyond the body, and 'explains' ESP phenomena in the way that two people sat at a table, having lunch, may simultaneously burst forth with "That reminds me..!" as both consciousnesses (having absorbed the shape of the vase, subconsciously connected it to some other item of shared experience and ended up bringing about a thought about an item a third or fourth level of awareness away from the original concept, for much the same reason and at muich the same time) arrive at a similar conclusion in a 'freaky' manner that some ascribe to intermingling consciousness, but which is usually just a synchronicity of awareness.  Ditto for the phone ringing and it being the person you were just about to call yourself, which would be rarer but far more noteworthy when it occurs than on occasions when it does not.

    [4] Also that if closed-timelike curves occur (i.e. full time travel, as opposed to basic reletivity-induced dilation), the universe is self-consistent and thus the consequences of a time-loop are self-sustaining.  i.e. the events that precipitate the time-traversal are themselves caused (or at least not counteracted) by the repurcussions of the events that the time-traversed causes cause to be effected within the 'normal' time-flow inbetween the arrival and departure points.  IYSWIM.  Although I'm also willing to go along with universe-branching, at any point when a future impinges upon its own past.  Either at the expense of the post 'departure' unvierse being dissolved into the energies required to create the new branch at the 'arrival' point, or (if the universe as a whole is zero-sum in energy/matter) just as a clone-but-with-TimeTraveller offshoot.  The tapestry of the universe is self-consistent, of course, and if cross-universe travel can also exist then the weave of cause and effect is part of the ultimate time-independant pattern.
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Starver

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2009, 11:52:01 am »

X,Y,Z,T(time),?,?,?....

Exactily when did time become a dimension of the universe?
In my opinion, it should always be te LAST simension, as it it not truely one, but a measure of the change in the rest, unless someone can prove that time travel(backwards as well as forwards at nonstandard rates) is completely possibe.

Until then, time should probably be considered a universal scalar rather than part of the x/y/z/? axis set, as each of those shoud be appliable to any object/particle with varying results WITHOUT changing the rest(unless the x/y/z set is a special case, and that would be incredibly ironic as they are the only ones we know for sure to exist)

In physics (or at least certain flavours of physics, not the most or least exotic ones) equations featuring the dimensions in some manner give the 't' dimension an imaginary (SQRT(-1)) multiplier.  A simplification, but for now go with it...

It is also interesting to consider that in some mathematical handlings of the 'space' beyond the event horizon of a black hole, the coordinate system of three space dimensions and time (which, for simplicity of calculation, we could consider to feature a polar rather than cartesian layout) switches so that the radial dimension 'r' has all the features of the inevitibility of time (as we understand it), while time itself is distorted around in the other direction, and with a little bit of jiggery pokery it isn't too far from that to the universe in which there is one space dimension (previously time) and three time ones (previously those of space).  Which is of course an imaginary complement of the usual state of affairs.  (And, last I heard, the best kind of universe for a tachyon to inhabit.)

And yes, I've made my case for that conclusion far too swift to properly justify.  Other World Theories also exist (never mind the N-Space, M-Space dimensional bundles that don't restrict themselves to the 3+1, and various other interesting geometries), but in the interests of keeping it short I'm cutting it short merely as a point of possible interest.
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Sowelu

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2009, 12:51:35 pm »

meteor hit the earth and all the dinosaurs died.

if evolution was proven, it wouldnt still be illegal in places to teach it. and you'd be able to win an argument over a religious fanatic.

If antibiotics were proven to work, religious fanatics wouldn't abuse their sick children by keeping them out of hospitals so they could be HEALED by JESUS.

OH WAIT THEY STILL DO THAT

Fanaticism means never having to admit you're wrong.

Anyway, as for evolution, it's not all about "oh the dinosaurs died".  It's about "okay, we have fossils from every ten thousand years or so for this span of a million years, and at a million years ago this creature was this size, and it had these bones, and every ten thousand years it changed slightly, and now its tail is different, and it's smaller".

It's about "Okay, we've got this island, and we can see from the plant record that plants were getting smaller, and once they started doing THAT, the herbivores started getting smaller".

It's about "Okay, this species of bird found its way onto this island that has a particular unique local seed.  We observe that this species of bird then radically changed over a short timespan, and its beak developed in ways to let it eat that particular seed".  Would you say that each of these examples illustrate evolution, Micro?  Because we have a lot of examples like this.  A whole lot.
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LegoLord

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2009, 12:55:02 pm »

Indeed.  A thing must be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not unreasonable doubt, so researchers don't have to bother with fanatics at all.
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Micro102

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2009, 02:19:51 pm »

A set of observations of facts = theory = set of facts.

A theory is not a hypothesis which is not based on observation or experience, but on a priori knowledge.

A theory is a structured and cohesive statement supported by a series of observed facts to explain a phenomena and is based exclusively on a posteriori knowledge.

TO ELABORATE

Hypothesis. If I drop a ball from ten meters in the air, it will hit the ground in approximately 1 second.

Theory. I dropped the ball from ten meters in the air, and it hit the ground in approximately 1  second, therefore acceleration due to gravity on the earths surface is observed to be approximately 10 meters per second per second.

Also; Gravity is also 'just' a Theory. Try to debate that one.

gravity is also not proven....as my phycis teacher said: how do you know the universe doesnt just move to the ball instead?

if all you had to do is state some observations and then logically deduce something from them then you could pretty much make up anything.
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Ampersand

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2009, 02:27:40 pm »

At this point, you are making a real effort to sound ignorant.
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Micro102

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2009, 03:02:36 pm »

i could call you ignorant too, but i belive in evolution also so i cant  :P


theory and fact are 2 different words, thats why they dont call it the fact of evolution. even though they should
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Ampersand

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2009, 03:03:55 pm »

Did you actually read anything anyone's said in this thread?
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NUKE9.13

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2009, 03:11:27 pm »

Did you actually read anything anyone's said in this thread?
Did who read what now?
Are you experiencing extreme annoyance? Are you seeing 'trolls'?
Try just ignoring them. As in, read what they are saying and then pretend it never happened. Responding is liable to cause a flame-war.
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Sowelu

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2009, 03:34:14 pm »

I pity the people who have to deal with Micro's children someday.  :P
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

Micro102

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2009, 03:54:50 pm »

so you ran out of argument and now are insulting?

thats how debates turn into fights
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Sowelu

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2009, 04:09:47 pm »

If you say gravity isn't proven, then you're not debating in any way that's related to how the rest of us are debating.  The things you say may be correct in a very, very narrow linguistic sense, but they are meaningless in scientific debate and they cloud the issues from what's important.  Your arguments aren't arguments, they are flat-out denials with no logic or understanding.  You might think that you are debating properly, but you really...really, really are not.  Sorry.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 04:11:50 pm by Sowelu »
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

Micro102

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2009, 05:51:05 pm »

well hell maybe only im getting what im trying to say. Go back on topic and talk about souls

i for one dont think they exist. as eventually there would be infinite souls....so where do they go?
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LegoLord

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2009, 05:54:37 pm »

i for one dont think they exist. as eventually there would be infinite souls....so where do they go?
Well, space is infinite anyway, and what souls are made from isn't really defined anywhere.  We don't really know what such a thing would be made out of.  That's why it's not proven, hence the topic title.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

DJ

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Re: A way to prove the (possible?) existence of the soul.
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2009, 07:31:18 pm »

What's soul? Could we equate it with personality? If so, it exist only in material world, because there are numerous cases of brain injury or lobotomy which resulted in a complete change of personality.
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