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[Volfram]

I'm glad you liked my "no level caps" idea.  I thought of it while watching someone play World of Warcraft at level 60('twas 3 years ago, that was the cap), and commenting about running into monsters that were higher than his level, and thinking "why?"

It pretty much went from there.  To facilitate players who can access unlimited potential, the world has to have an equally unlimited potential, meaning that as you travel further in a given direction, generated enemies will get more powerful, and to take some of the load off of the Devs, player-built equipment should be important.

I also like the idea of adding fashion sense into an MMO.  Just because I don't have any doesn't mean it shouldn't exist :p

Another major advantage I think it has is that it theoretically eliminates the "grind to level cap," and keeps the game new.  That's one reason I never picked up Guildwars.  Sure, it has no subscription fees, but I couldn't stomach the level cap.

Of course, it could do exactly the opposite.  I think no player levels but uncapped skill levels is a nice compromise.

As for maps, I think you should look into developing a map generator.  No matter how pretty your 2D maps are, they can still be broken down into component parts: towns, shops, roads, trees, mountains, walls, and tilesets.  Ultimately, it comes down to: checkpoints, obstacles, groups, events, and graphics.

[Azkanan]

As for maps, I think you should look into developing a map generator.  No matter how pretty your 2D maps are, they can still be broken down into component parts: towns, shops, roads, trees, mountains, walls, and tilesets.  Ultimately, it comes down to: checkpoints, obstacles, groups, events, and graphics.

You don't understand, i'm not using tiles. I'm using brushes in Paintshop, and that's it. Sure, I may make them into tiles, to make the process faster, but it generally looks alright.
For example, a wall. 3 tiles high, but nothing special as it goes horizontal.
Another example would be, a road. It won't be using squares, it'll go along without even thinking about tiles.

[Labs]

Azkanan, do you have a website?

[Azkanan]

Azkanan, do you have a website?

We have a free forum set up, but, it would be lifeless if we didn't have a minimal "introductory" group of at least 20.
Not to mention you guys live here! But, the forum of the Engine we are using is where we keep most of the graphics and whatnot for display.

http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/board,228.0.html

[Virtz]

Awesome of you to answer everyone. Really hope something comes of this.

Farming will be in; planting crops, watering, fertilizing, deweeding, etc. With the time system, this process could take days to take care of. (Real LIfe days).
Herding is something i'd like to see in, but the team hasn't really talked much on that. Farm animals should be easy enough, having a flock of sheep-like-creatures running away from you into a pen would be harder, though.
Should be fun!

Well, by herding I actually meant general animal care - feeding, breeding, milking/sheering. That sorta stuff. Sorry for being vague.

"at least DF-level realistic combat, " - Virtz

Right now, there are 3 battle systems. The first is a classic-rpg turn-based 6-member-party sort of thing, using a menu to select what each character does. This could be between Player VS NPC or Player VS Player.
The second is a duel system, where two players use a rock-paper-scissor system to fight each other, set on a cinematic view. (We should be able to throw some twists and turns into this system).
Finally is the army battles, where you control your character on a battlefield, alongside all of the soldiers in your army, and vice versa with the enemy - this system I look forward to the most.
So, I doubt we will be able to throw in a complex wrestling system, although we may be able to fit in a "poke guy. Send flying" system. That'd be ace - charging at the enemy, to see a soldier go flying backwards past you - or hitting you and knocking you over! Wow... Thanks for this idea!

Here I had DF's damage system in mind. Having encountered DF's advanced damage system for the first time, I had a very hard time returning to games with basic HP systems. At the very least, a game had to have fragile beings (as in, no battles of beings with thousands of HPs slowly draining away). But, as I can see from the other answers, you're not planning on a DF-like health system, so oh well. Although I must say the Final Fantasy like combat doesn't sound very appealing either. I like to have control over character positioning in combat. Doubt this would prevent me from playing, though. I can't recall combat ever being particularly appealing in MMORPGs (closest being UO).

"permadeath (as well as magical methods of avoiding it)" - Virtz

Permadeath is something I beleive should be avoided. It sounds obvious, seeing as we are trying to make this game realistic and all, but, if you spend 3 months working on that rare-magical-skill, get it to 99, and then be stabbed in the back whilst meditating by some newb, you won't be pleased.
But, permadeath is present in NPCs - and trust me, we are aiming to make it so you feel like you really know these guys, rather than having some idiot on the street with one or two lines.
He will have a family, his own skills, his own age. If he isn't killed, he will die of old age and maybe have children in his lifetime.

"possibility of non-lethal combat." - Virtz

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, unless you mean sparring? I think that that should be possible. Maybe in a Training Ground or a Sparring Room.
Maybe an option for Bandits to knock you out, rather than killing you, so that they can tie you up in their hideout and torture you. Or, ransom you off.
If we could reach that level of expansivity in MyWorld, I'd be very happy.

Well, these are things that I'd want to go hand in hand in "My Perfect MMO". The problem with current day MMORPGs is that the outcome of any combat is always death of either party, so permadeath indeed normally wouldn't be the best solution.

Any normal bandit/mugger/thief would really have no interest in killing you once you're out and they can take your stuff (why would they deprive themselves of an income source?). Neither do any herbivores or even some carnivores need to necessarily kill you. Killing someone is something you'd only do on a battlefield after the actual battle. Or if you had a bad grudge with someone. There's also a few options of disabling someone - breaking or severing a limb, loss of consciousness due to blood loss or blunt trauma or panicking and running away, dropping everything along the way.

And even then, there could be methods of avoiding being permanently killed. For example, being in really good terms with your god could grant you reincarnation, or maybe something better like respawning as the god's prophet (basically being imbued with some powers). Or perhaps previously enchanting yourself some time in your life to rise as a lich after death. Or perhaps remain as a restless spirit able to possess mindless undead beings. Or maybe entrusting some people with mummificating you after death, granting greater powers. There are many possibilities and, while pretty time costly, would in my opinion make permadeath more than viable.

But again, the lack of this wouldn't stop me from playing.

[Tilla]

Well, these are things that I'd want to go hand in hand in "My Perfect MMO". The problem with current day MMORPGs is that the outcome of any combat is always death of either party, so permadeath indeed normally wouldn't be the best solution.

Any normal bandit/mugger/thief would really have no interest in killing you once you're out and they can take your stuff (why would they deprive themselves of an income source?). Neither do any herbivores or even some carnivores need to necessarily kill you. Killing someone is something you'd only do on a battlefield after the actual battle. Or if you had a bad grudge with someone. There's also a few options of disabling someone - breaking or severing a limb, loss of consciousness due to blood loss or blunt trauma or panicking and running away, dropping everything along the way.

And even then, there could be methods of avoiding being permanently killed. For example, being in really good terms with your god could grant you reincarnation, or maybe something better like respawning as the god's prophet (basically being imbued with some powers). Or perhaps previously enchanting yourself some time in your life to rise as a lich after death. Or perhaps remain as a restless spirit able to possess mindless undead beings. Or maybe entrusting some people with mummificating you after death, granting greater powers. There are many possibilities and, while pretty time costly, would in my opinion make permadeath more than viable.

But again, the lack of this wouldn't stop me from playing.

Permadeath in MMOs is good in a perfect world. But that's just that: a perfect, theoretical world. In the real world, you have to face core tenets like: People are just douchebags in general. There are people who would lurk around killing simply because they think it's funny to ruin somebody's 6 month old character.

[Azkanan]

Well, these are things that I'd want to go hand in hand in "My Perfect MMO". The problem with current day MMORPGs is that the outcome of any combat is always death of either party, so permadeath indeed normally wouldn't be the best solution.

Any normal bandit/mugger/thief would really have no interest in killing you once you're out and they can take your stuff (why would they deprive themselves of an income source?). Neither do any herbivores or even some carnivores need to necessarily kill you. Killing someone is something you'd only do on a battlefield after the actual battle. Or if you had a bad grudge with someone. There's also a few options of disabling someone - breaking or severing a limb, loss of consciousness due to blood loss or blunt trauma or panicking and running away, dropping everything along the way.

And even then, there could be methods of avoiding being permanently killed. For example, being in really good terms with your god could grant you reincarnation, or maybe something better like respawning as the god's prophet (basically being imbued with some powers). Or perhaps previously enchanting yourself some time in your life to rise as a lich after death. Or perhaps remain as a restless spirit able to possess mindless undead beings. Or maybe entrusting some people with mummificating you after death, granting greater powers. There are many possibilities and, while pretty time costly, would in my opinion make permadeath more than viable.

But again, the lack of this wouldn't stop me from playing.

Permadeath in MMOs is good in a perfect world. But that's just that: a perfect, theoretical world. In the real world, you have to face core tenets like: People are just douchebags in general. There are people who would lurk around killing simply because they think it's funny to ruin somebody's 6 month old character.

The number one reason why I wouldn't put Permadeath in. Trolls and Agros.

Mind you, I did like the idea I came up with on being able to "leave" your character and play the lifetime of your offspring and be able to go back to your original character.
This appeases both parties; those who get bored of playing the same character all the way through, and those who'd rather stick to one character.

--

Also, you mentioned Liches. They are planned for MyWorld, I remember us going into depth on how that is acheived, can't really remember though... I think it was something to do with being a Mahgi and going through a series of challenges. Not sure. =[
(Mahgi are cursed, undeathly humans whom turned to black magic to avoid a plague (it's all in the history file we have)).

[Virtz]

Permadeath in MMOs is good in a perfect world. But that's just that: a perfect, theoretical world. In the real world, you have to face core tenets like: People are just douchebags in general. There are people who would lurk around killing simply because they think it's funny to ruin somebody's 6 month old character.

So then you return as a vampire Legacy of Kain style and kill them in return?

I'd expect people to be very vengeful in such cases. And continuing life in unlife wouldn't exactly be the end either. They'd simply have to play differently. And if they decided to stay in good terms with their god, they could very well keep reincarnating almost like in a normal MMO.

I recall this one browser MMO called Omerta. A 30s gangster sort of MMO. Players organized themselves into families, where they would protect each other. As in, kill the bastard who killed/tried to kill another member of the family. It was very grindy, with permadeath and had a decent amount of players. You required many bullets (up to hundreds) to kill the average person and the bullets cost a lot. Yet people were willing to fight, die and try again. And due to this permadeath, people were willing to go to war over the deaths of single people, not just because the whole guild decided to gank the other guild. But most of the time, people kept from abusing the existence of permadeath and only used it for power struggles and gang wars.

It might require a delicate balance or many counter-meassures to keep people from going berzerk with permadeath, but I do believe it's possible.

[Sowelu]

I might be the only person who doesn't want a game that's purely player-controlled IC.

For one thing, it just seems incorrect to ever claim that.  I mean the world was created by non-players, there's probably going to be secrets (or at least uncertainties) in the mechanics, or in the world itself, that aren't fully known by all the players, and if changes ever happen to the game design, they weren't initiated by the players.  The players' lives will be impacted by the devs, so you might as well step up and say "Sure, I'll run an event once in a while", instead of keeping some non-interference policy.

Anyway, a purely player-run thing sounds kind of boring.  Seems like playing a D&D game where the GM never really tries to instigate plots, just lets the players do whatever they want.  Gets stagnant.

[Labs]

But in this sense, every player is their own GM.

[Azkanan]

I might be the only person who doesn't want a game that's purely player-controlled IC.

For one thing, it just seems incorrect to ever claim that.  I mean the world was created by non-players, there's probably going to be secrets (or at least uncertainties) in the mechanics, or in the world itself, that aren't fully known by all the players, and if changes ever happen to the game design, they weren't initiated by the players.  The players' lives will be impacted by the devs, so you might as well step up and say "Sure, I'll run an event once in a while", instead of keeping some non-interference policy.

Anyway, a purely player-run thing sounds kind of boring.  Seems like playing a D&D game where the GM never really tries to instigate plots, just lets the players do whatever they want.  Gets stagnant.

Players can be kings of lands, though, controlling up to thousands of troops. With that power, comes alot of opportunities. There can only be one king per province, so he is sort of like a Mod, seeing as he has power of the normal peoples of the game.
So, in theory, "GM Run Events" are events that the kings cause. Wars, missions, quests, etc.

[Andir]

Dark text with the Darkling theme in this forum is baaaad.

Anyway, someone said Everquest was permadeath.  Nope.  However, you did drop all your items where you died and had to go back for it.  If you jumped in lava, you were screwed.

Permadeath done right would be a good thing.  Personally, I think a step in that direction would be to have time based permadeath.  If you die 4 times in a 24 hour period, you lose... or something along those lines.  Perhaps a timed resurrection period or a fight to regain your soul from the underlings who took it from you.  I know UO did ghosts, but it would be similar to this and WoW's death march.  You could even build that into the skill trees or world makeup with passages between the  planes.  Players that traverse the inverse (or "death") worlds.  Players could see each other in these parallel universes.  Players in the under-world would appear like black cloudy wisps to the over-world and alternatively players in the overworld would look like white wisps.  Each world could have it's own quests and story.  If done properly, the buildings could even reflect a difference in appearance as opposed to just texture.

My perfect MMO however would have no long distant teleports.  Short distance absolutely could be used for navigating chasms in dungeons and such, but in order to maintain regionalized economies and trade you're going to have to plan your get togethers a little better and make sure people work their way to events beforehand.  Factions would need to play a big role like they did in EQ further enhancing the idea of regionalizing the world.  Traders would have to work their faction up to be able to trade freely and players would have to seek out black markets for items that belong to rival factions.

[Duke 2.0]

 A note about being rewarded regularly: Of course gaining skill in something would reward you. However, it is the regularly thing that needs to be taken into consideration. Working towards skills should have mini-rewards upon the way other than working ones way towards 100% effectiveness, as well as such rewards generally coming relatively quickly.

 Basically, one would have mini-advances in a skill at the later levels of it that would provide small assistance to minor things like related skills and mini-skills. So say you have a skill with ten levels. The first advancement would come in ten minutes work. Each level up would double that requirement. At the end three hours of work will be needed to finish the skill, and a total of 5120 minutes or 85 hours.
 Wait, really 85 hours?
 *Checks math*
 Alright, I know that number can't be right.  Still, quite some time. My proposal is that during those spaces between awards(The 'level ups') there would be smaller rewards. Where the larger ones might award a 10% increase in efficiency, the smaller ones could add 1% in smaller skills over smaller requirements. Those three hours work would be filled with ten smaller 'level ups' which award small little bonuses, as to make such grinding less tedious.

 Basically, every hour of work should result in some reward for the player. Even if that reward is small, players should always feel they are accomplishing something.

[Andir]

A note about being rewarded regularly: Of course gaining skill in something would reward you. However, it is the regularly thing that needs to be taken into consideration. Working towards skills should have mini-rewards upon the way other than working ones way towards 100% effectiveness, as well as such rewards generally coming relatively quickly.

 Basically, one would have mini-advances in a skill at the later levels of it that would provide small assistance to minor things like related skills and mini-skills. So say you have a skill with ten levels. The first advancement would come in ten minutes work. Each level up would double that requirement. At the end three hours of work will be needed to finish the skill, and a total of 5120 minutes or 85 hours.
 Wait, really 85 hours?
 *Checks math*
 Alright, I know that number can't be right.  Still, quite some time. My proposal is that during those spaces between awards(The 'level ups') there would be smaller rewards. Where the larger ones might award a 10% increase in efficiency, the smaller ones could add 1% in smaller skills over smaller requirements. Those three hours work would be filled with ten smaller 'level ups' which award small little bonuses, as to make such grinding less tedious.

 Basically, every hour of work should result in some reward for the player. Even if that reward is small, players should always feel they are accomplishing something.

Well, all skills could have "mini" buffs for them.  For instance, extra targets, longer range, more damage.  Each teir of the skill could be an additional effect.

[Duke 2.0]

 Indeed. The idea is that there would be mini-teirs which would give small increases as you work towards the next 'level' of skill.