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Author Topic: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...  (Read 11873 times)

IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2009, 09:38:24 am »

Argh! IlPalazzo! Growing miracolously closer to world domination with each passing day!

But yeah, nanomachines fit that.
Still, grey goo is one of the possible ends, so... it'd not that welcomed, I think...
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Andir

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 09:58:06 am »

I don't understand why a machine that can create anything can't create parts for itself...

If it could create anything, why do you have war?  If someone else wants oil, make it in excess and give it to them.  If they want to rule their own country, I'll take a space ship or a submarine and live off on my own, because there's no need for government if there's no value in goods to protect.  Of course, I'm going to take one of these machines with me so I can make food and supplies.

Simply saying the machine can't build itself is kind of a cop-out.
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Baughn

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2009, 10:01:20 am »

Taking a more realistic route, we're not getting that machine, but nanofactories are about as good. With the added ability of self-replication.

So. If you have a large, nanofactory-powered industry, what sort of army would you make..?

Well, I'd write some suggestions, but someone else already did. Have a look at http://www.mccarthy.cx/WorldSystem/ - but be careful, it's more than one page.
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Siquo

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2009, 10:07:24 am »

Nano machines FTW.

Grey-goo is a myth, for the sole reason that entities that reproduce using any and all means possible already exist, and it's called "life".

So: microbots beat giant bots. Of course, having BOTH is even better (there was a movie remake with Keanu Reeves a little while ago with that in it).
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Armok

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2009, 10:33:41 am »

The most powerful weapon that might or might not be physically possible to make, and is controlled by a human:
A supercomputer linked up to an incredibly precise wormhole generator. as soon as it is first started, it scans (via microscopic wormholes opened everywhere, this can be done simultaneously due to a few tricks involving timetravel, which the wormholes will also be able to do) the entire universe for information processing devices, such as computers and brains. It then puts microscopic wormholes in them that can control or eavesdrop them. This means it can read thoughts and intentions directly from the owners brain, and then mindcontrol any man or machine acording to his/her whim. If it wants to cause more physical damage, it can open a larger wormhole and the massive space-time curvature will turn whatever it wants to destroy into mush. It can look into the past future, so if it turns out you would have regretted something in the future it wont do it. It eavesdrop everything, which means that anything that shows hostility towards you can be instantly (or faster, whit timetravel) destroyed. It also supplies you whit information. Did I mention it perfectly mind controls everything in the universe so you wouldn't have to use it as a weapon anyway as everyone would just do what you wanted them to?

Yes, it's lame. Yes it's probably not possible. But there is a fair chance it IS possible whit high enough tech, which is more than you can say about some of the things you see in scifi movies.

What? This is not enough? You want something more "down to earth"?
Fine, a more realistic alternative to what might fill the heavy armour role more realistically than tanks identical to current ones or giant humanoid robots:

Yup, I made this one day a few months ago having about the same thoughts as this topics OP.
The girl on the top whit the cybernetic tail is the pilot, mostly for size comparison.
The main bulk is that rigid, heavily armoured cylinder that you see, it contains the pilot, and well as most bulky or sensitive machinery. The windscreen you see in front is not actually a direct window into the cockpit as that would make the pilot far to exposed, it's purpose is to protect sensor arrays, as well as containing weak anti personnel and point defence lasers, and a few other optics related things. To enter cockpit the windscreen can pop forward, I'm been intending to make an animation of this for months so i probably never will.
At the back, currently out of view, is a propulsion system, I'm not sure if it's a rocket, some kind of jet, some combination of the two, or something more futuristic, whatever it is it's good enough to make the machine an effective space fighter, and is capable of providing trust in vacuum, air, or even possibly water alike. On the sides of the cylinder, evenly spaced in a front and aft circle, are 8 limb sockets and 8 multi purpose sockets. The multi-purpose sockets hold heavy weaponry or special equipment in configurations that can be easily customized depending on mission. The limb sockets hold the limbs, which are detachable and replaceable. The reason for having sockets this way is that extruding things like limbs are unavoidably weak points, and this way the main bulk will go mostly unharmed even if some get blasted away.
The limbs are extremely flexible, fast, etch. The cost for this is bulky machinery inside the main bulk (preliminary some kind of hydraulics) Notice that + shaped segment, it slides. it's an excellent example of how a machine relying completely on bending joints is not necessary optimal.
The interesting thing whit the limbs however is what they end in: they rotate in that classic fashion to quickly switch between two devices. The first is a plasma gun/jet which can modify it's muzze to work like a blasterlike thing, a plasma rocket, a plasma-flame-thrower thingy, a plasma cutter, or a few other things. This sound advanced but it's not very different from existing engines for spacecraft that NASA use, one can actually modify one of those into a plasma gun by just turning of a specific magnet in the muzzle.
The second device is simply a lump of claytronics (reshapes itself like nanobots is usually attributed being able to do, except this is much more realistic as the units are a few millimetres across rather than having to be microscopic, and is specialized on making shapes without having to fit machinery for computing and reproducing and a billion other things. Even if you CAN make nanotechnology that can reshape itself that way, a dedicated device like this most certainly can exercise much greater forces.) covered in a armoured, superstretchable fabric. (because realistic claytronics are WAY to delicate to be directly exposed to battlefield conditions)
In the image you can see the claytronics asume the shape of paws to stand on, a wheel (interesting note: the claytronics dosn't actually move when the wheel spins, the fabric is simply being rotated and slide overt them, meaning that wheels don't necessary need to be round, it works somewhat like a mix between a wheel and tracks) and a platform that the pilot stand on. It could form innumerable other forms as well, including for example a fully functioning oversized humanoid hand.

I have spent WAY to much time typing this out, if you have more specifics you want to know just ask, I could go on for another few hours. I spend way to much time thinking about this kind of thing.
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Baughn

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2009, 10:35:51 am »

Unfortunately, no. There are MANY tricks nanomachines can use that evolution never figured out, like using covalent bonds (eg. diamondoid) instead of fluffy, weak proteins.

Not to mention that a bacteria-sized nanomachine could contain similar comuting power to an insect brain without being overly bothered by the power requirements...

What grey goo is, is hard, and pointless. There are far better ways to make war, like the aforementioned microbots. Which is not to say that someone won't create gray goo eventually just for the hell of it...


Oh, and about the wormhole thing.. ignoring all the other problems, there's a very good possibility that wormholes aren't possible at all.

Actually, we have no reason to think they are possible whatsoever. Yes, they are legal under einstein's equations, but only barely - and those are known to be incorrect, so yeah..
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Siquo

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2009, 11:00:51 am »

There are MANY tricks nanomachines can use that evolution never figured out, like using covalent bonds (eg. diamondoid) instead of fluffy, weak proteins.

Not to mention that a bacteria-sized nanomachine could contain similar comuting power to an insect brain without being overly bothered by the power requirements...

1. Biology uses covalent bonds ALL the time. Diamondoid is probably too energy-intensive to make, and impossible to repair, compared to stuff like chitin.

2. Could? How? We can't even mimic an insect brain with the biggest supercomputer that we have.

Grey goo is simply impossible without an enormous external energy source (enormous as in: a lot more than the sun gives us, which is the external source currently used by most lifeforms).
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

umiman

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2009, 11:35:14 am »

I don't understand why a machine that can create anything can't create parts for itself...

If it could create anything, why do you have war?  If someone else wants oil, make it in excess and give it to them.  If they want to rule their own country, I'll take a space ship or a submarine and live off on my own, because there's no need for government if there's no value in goods to protect.  Of course, I'm going to take one of these machines with me so I can make food and supplies.

Simply saying the machine can't build itself is kind of a cop-out.
Who cares? It's not a serious thread. If you don't like my backstory which I made up in 10 seconds, make your own. The important thing is to showcase your weapon ideas.

bjlong

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2009, 11:40:15 am »

The world will soon have nuclear missiles all over, waiting to be launched, non-proliferation treaties be damned. So, barring the timely intervention of a reliable, fast missile defense system, nuclear ICBMs will be the ultimate say in warfare.

Bombers, carriers, tanks, etc. will all be for show. The infantry regiments, though, will have a different purpose.

Taking and holding territory will become prohibitively expensive, both in capital and world politics, and be impossible without a nuclear strike. Since noone wants this, an alternate route would be to use political strikes to take out the members of government that are against certain policies. Yes, I'm talking about spies, selected from the military regiments. However, I predict the emergence of a new type of spy, one that enters the country and starts a terrorist movement to carry out whatever orders his/her commander gives. This way, terrorism can take the blame for black ops.

This gives the commanders pseudo strike teams that can be anywhere they need them without drawing attention to themselves, difficult to capture, and very disposable.

Naturally, there will be lots of tech associated with this.

This does not work if a long-term civilian LEO space station is built in the meantime, though, as that would change the ICBM dynamic.

I do have a problem with some of these assumptions--there may be one person crazy enough to pull the trigger on a nuke, and I have no clue how that endgame might work out.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2009, 11:42:30 am »

Taking and holding territory will become prohibitively expensive, both in capital and world politics, and be impossible without a nuclear strike. Since noone wants this, an alternate route would be to use political strikes to take out the members of government that are against certain policies. Yes, I'm talking about spies, selected from the military regiments. However, I predict the emergence of a new type of spy, one that enters the country and starts a terrorist movement to carry out whatever orders his/her commander gives. This way, terrorism can take the blame for black ops.

This is good idea.  So good in fact, that it makes me chuckle coldly and quietly to myself to here you claim this as a new and original idea.  Oh if only knew how late you are...
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umiman

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2009, 11:43:45 am »

He didn't say anything about it being new or original though.

What's an LEO space station?

Aqizzar

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2009, 11:45:18 am »

Low Earth Orbit, i.e. low enough to be practical and "easy" to transport stuff to and from.
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Strife26

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2009, 11:45:44 am »

Don't count armor out yet.

The problem with infantry is the simple fact that they're slow and squishy. You need mobile assets (tanks) or you'll be pulverized by artillery.

The problem with armor comes with shaped charged warheads. You can combat them to some extent with better reactive armor (why stop at explosive plates? add Hammer-esque shotgun strips, or pokey metal rods to mess up targeting)

Suppressing fire will be where it's at. A-10 like aircraft will become obsolete for their traditional roles (portable missiles will get too good). However, they will find a new job with standoff munitions. You can load bigger missiles on a plane than Urist can carry on his back.
An assault on a defended Urban environment would be conducted by heavy armor. Someone's opening up with missiles? A Warthog type blasts the building from afar. Tank traps? Artillery destroys them. A billion screaming peasants with RPG 1000's? Heavy machine gun fire and cluster munitions destroy them. Unlike infantry, the tanks can take at least some fire before dieing, forcing the hostiles to expose themselves (and then being annihilated by indirect fire).

The entire system gets messed up if the enemy has just as much suppressing fire though. Which is why orbital weapons come up. Not nukes or lasers, heavy rods. When it's coming at terminal velocity a big metal stick can do a lot of damage. Whichever superpower gets a system to control and hold space will win.

Space = precision strikes that do lots of damage
Recon (just imagine the number of sats you could put up)
Comunications (sorry buddies, you DON'T get to borrow our GPS network)
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Aqizzar

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2009, 11:49:01 am »

Orbit Superiority raises the potentially awesome question of SPACE WARFARE.

Which will probably just amount to powered satellites crashing into each other.
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The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

bjlong

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Re: Giant robots are a terrible idea so...
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2009, 11:51:46 am »

Nah, it's been done before, (See: the cold war) but it's the only thing I can see as an endgame if we can't find a reliable missile defense system.

A LEO space station is a Low Earth Orbit space station. It's within the atmosphere enough to block cosmic radiation, but high enough to be in space. The most likely design for it IMO is a giant ring. It would change the ICBM domanance because it would put a huge "shield" in orbit, and a careful commander might (theoretically) keep his forces under the "shield," forcing either a land war or an atrocity of his enemies.

I'll put more up about space vs. earth combat later.
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