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[SeanTucker]

Why do I get the feeling DF is the product of Toady One being in a Fey Mood, and he'll eventually finish it and become a Legendary Programmer?

[Psyringe]

The thread topic itself notes that the question posed in it is stupid, and I have to agree with that. Not because the topic raises the question of whether DF could be developed faster or even better in a commercial environment - that's a legitimate question, although the answer would be "probably not", due to reasons mentioned already in the previous posts. But the question in the thread topic *is* stupid for insinuating that indie games, or DF specifically, isn't being developed "properly". That's pretty offensive towards indie game authors in general imho.

For various reasons, Toady wants to have full control of the project. These reasons include that he doesn't want to compromise his vision of the game, they also include that DF would have a hard time finding commercial funding anyway due to being a niche product (thought adorably great within this niche), but the main reason for it, as stated in numerous interviews, is that the DF donations are his main source of income. The current arrangement (funding through donations) has worked so far, and that's why he's careful about changing it, by building teams, seeking commercial funding, etc. The more control he gives away, the less control he has over the project that currently pays his rent and food. Who wouldn't be careful then?

Devloping a project in this way is not a new idea by any means, it happens every day, though it's still a bit more common in other businesses. There are artists all over the world who *could* get more commercial success, or a better working environment, by giving up control over their work, but who don't want to, for various and very legitimate reasons. That doesn't mean they are not doing their work "properly".

[Kittah_Khan]

Just to say, Toady is doing this because he loves/enjoys making games and having people play them.
Making it a commercial game does not further either of these goals, nor is it likely to make dwarf fortress a better game.
The only way to really help Toady is to donate, taking the game away from bay12 is not going to help anyone.

[Volfram]

I was thinking as I read this thread.

I recently began an internship hunting bugs at a relatively small software company.  While it's a boon to have multiple testers and fixers, the infrastructure required to support it is fairly significant.

We have one guy whose job is basically keeping the subversion repository running smoothly, I think three managers who run through new bug reports and farm the work out, then run through the bugs that have been turned in and turn them over to the testing team.  There are about six or seven testers who test bugs to make sure they're not broken, about a dozen programmers(including four interns) who add new features and fix bugs, two tech support guys for the entire floor, and several more people whose jobs I don't know yet.

so if Toady were to add people to his team, he'd have to get a SVN repository running, and someone to maintain it.  This would cut into his programming time, and I don't think it's his cup of tea anyway, so he'd probably delegate it to the new guy.

He could add several coders to write new features and squash bugs.  I believe this is roughly what he does with Baughn, but Baughn's job is so minor that they can communicate over E-mail.  Still, while the graphical updates have done wonders for performance, what cost have they had on development?

Even with several more programmers, there are two jobs Toady would have to keep for himself: testing and bug management.  If he's not in sole command of these, then DF will quickly deviate from his intended vision.  These two jobs, however, would take up pretty much all of his time, leaving no time to do what he actually enjoys: program the game.

[yuhhaur]

Why do I get the feeling DF is the product of Toady One being in a Fey Mood, and he'll eventually finish it and become a Legendary Programmer?

Truly Dwarfing... 

[Alrenous]

It's still in alpha, uses graphics considered outdated ten years ago, as said above has a brick wall learning curve and is already widely available for free.

One of my favourite parts of DF remains scaling that brick wall. But at the very least I was already convinced that there was something really awesome at the top.

[Kate Wissen]

This thread is still alive? Why? I think we can all safely say the answer to the stupid question is because that is the way toady wants it. He's already stated why he doesn't even want the game to be modular.

"If a third party interface becomes popular, I think I might lose control of the project. I don’t want to be in a position where I have to accommodate and work with other people." - Tarn Adams

The second sentence pretty much sums up why there won't be other programmers added to the main production of the game.

As far as selling the game? Probably not the best way for him to go at the moment anyway. He's living off of donations. If it switches to a one time purchase system, sales will die down over time.

Edit: By the way I realize the irony of posting on a thread in order to decry it, so don't bother pointing that out. </simpsons reference>

[eerr]

Toady's models for making money, organizing the project, and generally achieving all of his goals breakdown in a corporate system.

[Vander]

...It's still in alpha, uses graphics considered outdated ten years ago...

10 Years ago!? Try 20, in fact even longer. 11 Years ago the original Half-Life was released.

Personally I don't think the appeal comes directly from the ASCII graphics forcing people to imagine their forts in more detail, though it is related.

The direct appeal for Dwarf Fortress is that the nature of the graphics and the game itself means that just about anything you can think of reasonably doing with the game is possible. Anything!. How many other games that have ever been made would allow players to design a computer within the game itself. How many other games are there where virtually any machine, landscaping or other project is possible with just a little lateral thinking and planning?

There are only a couple of games that I can think of that came close to this Ultima and Garry's Mod of Half-life 2, and both of these projects like Dwarf Fortress were the brainchild of men who became the driving force behind the games. An honourable mention also has to go to Deus Ex which whilst not quite as free form the above did allow you to do almost anything that a person would reasonably do in a situation (Who could forget shooting Ana Navare for the first time and finding out that it was a legitimate method to progress in the game).

Imagination is the key to the appeal of these games, not just using your imagination to fill in the blanks, but the ability to play and create anything that you can imagine. The fact is that with ASCII it is actually easier for Toady to concentrate on making anything possible in the game, because it does not then have to be rendered in graphics, a task that become exponentially more difficult as more variables are created.

Perhaps this is the reason that video games have been bemoaned for lack of content over the previous decade, because the graphical limitations were such that it was not possible for designers to render the amazingly variable actions that a player could undertake, and hence linearity became the norm.

Whether these limitations will be overcome and we will be able to witness a new golden age of gaming is yet to be seen, but for now at least we have gems like Dwarf Fortress hiding in the rough to tide us over whilst we wait.

[Eagle]

"If you can't build a tower upon a sheer cliff face over which you may throw precisely one hundred and fifty-two kittens and seven stalwart dwarves to their explosive doom some fifty stories below, then brother, your game ain't much of a sandbox, is it?"

[Eater of Vermin]

I reckon DF is like a book.

The author has graciously permitted us to read the first chapter...  and it's a damned good read.  Needs a bit more development, but as future chapters develop the first chapter will see several rewrites anyway.

To ask 'Why is it still an indie game and not "properly" developed' is a bit like saying 'Hey, we like!  It's got potential, so let's give it to a real author...'   

Yeah, it is a stupid question, really, if not a tad insulting. 

[QuakeIV]

Heh i laughed at the 'horrible to beginners post' simply because the instant i saw the game "THIS IS FREAKIN PERFECT" then i start to figure it out. I had so much fun .

[HexagonalBolts]

The thread topic itself notes that the question posed in it is stupid, and I have to agree with that. Not because the topic raises the question of whether DF could be developed faster or even better in a commercial environment - that's a legitimate question, although the answer would be "probably not", due to reasons mentioned already in the previous posts. But the question in the thread topic *is* stupid for insinuating that indie games, or DF specifically, isn't being developed "properly". That's pretty offensive towards indie game authors in general imho.

For various reasons, Toady wants to have full control of the project. These reasons include that he doesn't want to compromise his vision of the game, they also include that DF would have a hard time finding commercial funding anyway due to being a niche product (thought adorably great within this niche), but the main reason for it, as stated in numerous interviews, is that the DF donations are his main source of income. The current arrangement (funding through donations) has worked so far, and that's why he's careful about changing it, by building teams, seeking commercial funding, etc. The more control he gives away, the less control he has over the project that currently pays his rent and food. Who wouldn't be careful then?

Devloping a project in this way is not a new idea by any means, it happens every day, though it's still a bit more common in other businesses. There are artists all over the world who *could* get more commercial success, or a better working environment, by giving up control over their work, but who don't want to, for various and very legitimate reasons. That doesn't mean they are not doing their work "properly".

I reckon DF is like a book.

The author has graciously permitted us to read the first chapter...  and it's a damned good read.  Needs a bit more development, but as future chapters develop the first chapter will see several rewrites anyway.

To ask 'Why is it still an indie game and not "properly" developed' is a bit like saying 'Hey, we like!  It's got potential, so let's give it to a real author...'   

Yeah, it is a stupid question, really, if not a tad insulting. 

Apologies for my poor wording, my post was not intended to be offensive. I hold Toady in the highest respect above all other developers for creating the game that I have easily spent the most time on and had the most fun in.

I understand his motivations now (it was quite some time ago that I made that post), and I didn't mean to criticise his efforts, it was just infuriating that the game has such a slow pace of development and that development seemed more focused on bringing in new ideas and very much forgot optimisation or making the game more approachable for beginners (or even experts). He rarely pauses to refine. There are thousands of simple problems pestering the Dwarf Fortress player and hampering his experience that could have been fixed ages ago. Even things as simple as being warned about damp rock when there is no danger posed, or allowing world creation with sliders that can't make worlds that won't generate, or providing tooltips, or advancing from ASCII, or providing a nice user interface, or any of the other thousand nagging problems that haunt the forums...

However, now, I'm certain that Dwarf Fortress would not be even a shadow of its current brilliance had Toady paused to make a game that was as accessible as modern expensive commercial games (what I meant by 'properly', apologies for the poor wording), especially when accessibility can often mean 'dumbing down'.

So I suppose it's just a negative I will have to live with, it's worth it for the best game in the world.

[sproingie]

Why do I get the feeling DF is the product of Toady One being in a Fey Mood, and he'll eventually finish it and become a Legendary Programmer?

I hope for ThreeToe's sake that it isn't a Fell mood.   

[atomfullerene]

Well, I hope he isn't possessed.  He deserves to get legendary skill out of this.