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[Leartes]

Hi,

I started playing the game some weaks ago and already started modding it since there are a lot of things I want to change for a better gaming experience. (e.g. make carps reasonable weak, add other more dangerous creatures/civ, change the value system etc.) So in general I don't want to create lots of contents but balance stuff better.
Now while going through the raw's I learnt that cats have the same damage (1:6) as dogs, as the feared carp and as dragons (!). Does anyone know how this damage values are used and what they depend on ? Is the creatures size also important ? Otherwise I feel it would be better to give cats a mere 1:1, dogs a 1:4 or keep the 1:6 and dragons get something like 3:12 (if those values are possible).

Also I am interested in other detailed information on the fighting system like, how do those damage values compare with weapon damge values (usually ranging from 50 to 150). And how does a creatures damblock compare to a worn armor. I feel a dragon should have a near impenetratable skin, since I didn't fought many dragons yet, is this already covered by the huge size ?

If you know an answer on anything above or have any related information, please share it here 

[Smew]

Most of what is known about the damage system is on the wiki, but as far as I know not -that- much is known.
I do know size is a definite factor in damage though.

[Untelligent]

Also, it's generally agreed that the reason carps have a reputation for being dangerous is that the dwarf at the stream, upon seeing the fish with teeth, dodges out of the way. Said dwarf has about a 40% or 50% chance of dodging into the stream instead of dry land, and drowns.

And as Smew says, size has a definite factor in combat proficiency; whether or not it's more important than the numbers in the attack tags, I can't say, but if I were to guess without doing any research at all, I'd say yes.

[i2amroy]

I know that size is pretty important. Once I gave dragon's a taunt attack that did 0:0:BURN damage. I thought it was a funny way of having dragons gloat in battle like they do in stories... at least until I saw one of the dragons in adventure mode taunt an elf swordmaster and incinerate his lower body. My experience did teach me something though, size has quite an effect on damage.

[Rhenaya]

i think thats because of burn incinerates regarless of damage done

[i2amroy]

Burn doesn't always incinerate things, it can still singe and burn instead. You only get the "This has been incinerated" message if it is an instantly fatal hit.

[Leartes]

So for damage you just have compare different creatures of the same size and order those, the rest is done by size.

Any information about equipment now ? Like: Is a dwarfs armed damage influenced by its damage value ? And how is damblock ranked between armor and shields ?
I know research on those topics must be a pain because we can't see the damage calculation directly - just its effects and we don't know our opponents attributes and skill level, still if someone knows something i'd be happy to know it.

Thanks in advance

[Erom]

I have been told, and who knows how accurate this is, that the damage in the creature files is a factor of 10 off the damage in the weapon files, that is, 1:6 damage is equivalent to a weapon that deals 10 to 60 damage. I assume this multiplication takes place before the damage is scaled by creature size, but who really knows?

Keep in mind also that weapons have quality and material multipliers, from x0.5 for a plain quality bone weapon to x10 for a masterful adamantine weapon.

[Grimlocke]

Any information about equipment now ? Like: Is a dwarfs armed damage influenced by its damage value ?

If you mean by 'damage value' the attacks specified in the creature file, then probably not. Those are just punch and bite attacks that dwarfs use if they cant do anything else, when they are weapons they the default attacks ar
Im quite certain that size matter though, as does weapon material, quality and wielder skill. Agility, fatigue, hunger, thirst, etc dont seem to be related to damage, but rather to rate of attack.

And how is damblock ranked between armor and shields ?

What I saw in adventurer mode, is that my guy first tries to block an incoming atttack with his shield (says 'the shot is blocked' with no specific bodypart), if that fails, the attacks hits some random bodypart and the damages is calculated with attack damage and damage block.

Also, a size 10 creature with a 1:6 damage attack dismembers the hell out of most humans and elfs, seeing as a dragon is size 20 its damages cant be all that bad.

[Kittah_Khan]

I think the damage value for creature attacks is the attack damage values * size, merely a theory though
so a size 10 creature with 1:2 gore damage on its bite would do between 10 and 20 gore damage per normal bite attack
Next to that on damblock

creature defence is dependant on both size and damblock
say a size 7 creature with 0 damblock has 7 armor
a size 7 creature with 5 damblock would have 12 armor
a size 12 creature with 0 damblock would also have 12 armor

the size 7 creature still does less damage, of course.

I'm not quite certain how creature armor works, but from what I can see, you could multiply the armor value by five, you might get something akin to the block value for iron armor, just a guess.

[i2amroy]

Communally, though, I can confidently say that we basically have no idea about how the damage system works, other than hypothesis, and unless Toady brings down the word of god an enlightens us, or someone manages to find it in the code, I don't think we are going to know anytime soon.

[Leartes]

So the ideas you came up are similar to mine. Still I don't really believe that a dragon deals 20 to 120 damage on an attack when there are weapon traps components dealing far more - and you can put 10 of those in a single trap. On the other hand I really don't have experience with dragons, just used it as an example.

It seems we really don't know much ...

Any chance to get a statement from toady or are we ment to figure it out ourselves ?

[Kilumanjaro]

I think just straight multiplication is not quite right... s

Seems more likely to be something like attack damage + Size x 10 = Damage dealt, where damage dealt is equivalent to what you would find in weapon raws.  That would make a dragon bite for 210 to 260 gore damage, and a dwarf punch for 70 bludgeon.  Those numbers are much more reasonable when compared to what is found in the raws for armor block rates and weapon damages.

My only evidence is anecdotal, of course, but I've been getting pretty reasonable results from using numbers like this.

[Deon]

I prayed to the gods, and The One answered me...

On a serious note, I've just asked Toady via PM:

This is from the 40d12 code, since this is all scrapped for next time.  Please post this out on the wiki or whatever if you'd like, since it'll be easier than typing it up again.  I'll ignore all the training modifiers, since they are numerous, but they basically bring down the attack value against really easy skill rolls.

Let's say we've got a weapon with damage 65.  The craft quality modifier is applied to that, so say it was well-crafted and we therefore have 65*6/5.  This is 390/5 = 78.  Let's say the metal modifier is 75%, so it's then reduced to 58.  This is divided by 10, 5.  And then we pick a number from 1 to 5, say, 4.  4 is greater than (5+1)/2=3, so this attack is marked as "strong", and is therefore eligible for stuck-ins.

So we have a 4.  Say the attacker is "strong" (str=1).  We apply a modifier from 0 to 1, then.  Say we get it, for a damage of 5.  Say the attacker is berserk (0-4) and charging (0-5).  Let's say those two rolls net us 4 more.  Now we are a 9.

Now say the defender has a thick damblock 2 skin.  We remove 0-2 points from our attack value, say 1.  Now we are at 8.  We then look at the size difference.  In this case, let's say the attacker is 3 sizes larger.  We add 0-3 points to the attack, say 2.  Now we are at 10.  If the size were smaller, you just flat subtract that number (no randomization).

Let's say the defender has a toughness of 2 (very tough, or whatever).  We subtract 0-2, say 0.  Still at 10.  Being berserk/enraged can lower the attack damage if the defender is in that state, by 0-4, though I'm not sure why.  I might intended the trance there, but I don't remember my rationale.  In any case, still at 10.

Now say the defender is lying on the ground.  The attacker isn't using a latchable attack, so we have the huge x2 damage bonus that comes from smacking a prone opponent.  Now we are at 20.

Now we get to the defender's armor.  Look at all of the items which cover the struck part, say the upper arm, and use the second/main damage block there according to all the up/down step stuff.  Say there are two items on the part, blocking it for a total of 20+30=50.  Craftquality and material modifiers work as with weapons, changing this to say 45.  Then skill rolls are made against armor skill.  The defender gets a good roll and manages to double the value, attaining a 90.  This is divided by 10, giving us 9.  Now we take 0-9 off the damage value, say 5.  Now we are at 15.  At this point, if the attack is at 0, and a very hard roll is made against the skill-modified hit roll, there is a chance it gets raised to 1 regardless of all prior obstacles.  This in particular allows highly-skilled or lucky fighters to injure gigantic creatures.

Anyway, we are at 15.  This is a very hard hit, so we apply all manner of horror to the creature.  If the weapon is bludgeoning, it'll cause 15/2=7 bleeding, 15*10=150 exertion, 15*5=65 pain, and mangle the once healthy arm to 15-15=0, completely mangled.  The damage is also greater than 9 and not piercing/goring/burning/etc., so the target can be propelled.  If the weapon were slashing, the bleeding would be much greater (15).  It wouldn't get stuck in because the creature can still be propelled by slashing weapons.  There's also the whole matter of criticals, which I won't go into.  And severs, which would have happened with a slashing weapon if we had gotten to 16 or if the part were already damaged in any way.

This is a crazy formula to calculate... And in each case (when we look at strength, toughness, size etc.) it's a random number... Wow.

[Deon]

Here I wrote the formula for the attack without the defender wearing an armor (with an armor it's too long, you can do it yourself):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This attack is multiplied by 2 if the defender is prone and the attacker is standing.
RND(A) means a random number from 0 to A.
DMG = weapon damage
QLT1 = quality modifier of weapon
MAT1 = material modifier of weapon
STR1 = strength level of attacker
DMBL2 = damblock of defender
TOU2 = toughness level of defender
Also skill modifier applies to this damage.

Now all 1..6 make sense. It means that a creature rolls from 1 to 6 instead of usual (damage*quality*material/10) for a weapon.
For critters as dragons that's size that matters the most.
Thus, giving it 3..12 (as author suggested) is... way too extreme.

P.S. In example of dragons, it's -14 to attack of a dwarf. Thus if the dwarf is not charging and not berserk and has no skill levels and strength, it means that to be able to even scratch a dragon the MINIMUM damage of weapon should be 150... And then it will be a chance (1 of 15) to damage the dragon (and as far as I know, there's no weapon with a damage of 150 in DF without modding -> no chance to scratch a dragon for a farmer).