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Author Topic: The revolution is being televised.  (Read 11724 times)

Little

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2009, 04:29:52 pm »

I'm stealing Ampersand's Avatar in support.
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Ampersand

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2009, 07:14:12 pm »

Hell yes! People fighting against the tyranny in their lives! Standing up against insanely powerful opposition because it's the right thing to do! Things like that draw my faith in humanity back upwards. Row, row, fight the powah!

It's "Rah Rah, Fight the Powah!" Really, look it up.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2009, 08:15:49 pm »

Breaking News From Iran - Headline: Hold Your Head Up

-Former President and Honcho Cleric Rafsvanjani says Khamenei should step down.
-Widespread evidence of ballot-stuffing reported in Iranian cities, like 141% vote returns.
-Civil Police members (not whole stations yet) have refused to patrol, after Ayatollah Montezari's condemnations.
-Some civil workers who control Internet and phone restrictions have abandoned their posts or refused to work.
-Iranian Army Generals have been detained by the Revolutionary Guard, after flatly refusing to order soldiers to fire on protesters should it the Supreme Leader demand it.
-Shouting matches, possibly fist fights, have broken out in the halls of Parliament.
-The Guardian Council will meet with opposition leaders after tomorrow (the Sabbath, when millions will be marching.)

Barring something horrifically extraordinary (Last Resort nuke or some such), the revolution is already all but over.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 08:28:59 pm by Aqizzar »
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umiman

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2009, 09:17:40 pm »

See, it wasn't all that interesting. Just typical stuff.

inaluct

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2009, 10:12:00 pm »

Dude, it's been an admirable display of determination and desire for fair leadership on the part of the Iranian people. It's definitely interesting.

Now we just need to see if they can actually accomplish anything.
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Little

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2009, 10:30:52 pm »

Dude, it's been an admirable display of determination and desire for fair leadership on the part of the Iranian people. It's definitely interesting.

Now we just need to see if they can actually accomplish anything.

Indeed. The opposition has Ayatollah by the balls, I think. Unless they want the country(or at least Tehran) to kinda degenerate in a massive riot, they'll agree to some sort of a compromise.
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umiman

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2009, 10:58:58 pm »

Think about it. Is it *that* groundbreaking? The government "might" be changed from a conservative one to a slightly less conservative one. Considering the state of events, both parties are going to have a compromise, and the situation there isn't really going to change all that much.

You're just affected by a large number of people massing together doing stuff. They haven't actually won anything by doing this. The government hasn't been changed. Ayatollah is still in control. In fact, looking at the way things are playing out, I'm quite sure they're poised to be played by Ayatollah like puppets. There's no crowd easier to control than one run on fury and testosterone. Furthermore, if this continues any longer, the revolutionaries are going to end up looking like villains.

Strife26

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2009, 11:30:08 pm »

It messes up one of the few evil countries left in the world. Don't call it pointless.
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inaluct

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2009, 11:33:07 pm »

Well, we're arguably pretty bad.
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umiman

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2009, 11:39:44 pm »

It messes up one of the few evil countries left in the world. Don't call it pointless.
Even your phrasing makes it pointless. If it was truly of any significance, you'd have said something more than "messes up".

Though judging by how readily you called an entire country evil, I'm sure saying anything further is useless.

Yanlin

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2009, 01:32:50 am »

It messes up one of the few evil countries left in the world. Don't call it pointless.
Even your phrasing makes it pointless. If it was truly of any significance, you'd have said something more than "messes up".

Though judging by how readily you called an entire country evil, I'm sure saying anything further is useless.

I'm going to ask you to stop acting like a prick.

The entire country was a threat to the world. That is about to change. They are going to be more like Turkey now.

It is an extremely important event. Because it's an example of what should have happened in Iraq with Saddam. Not to mention that the revolution is already all or nothing. They've refused to compromise so far. What makes you think they'll try it now?
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umiman

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2009, 03:48:27 am »

Because that's what history has shown to happen. It's also basic politics. If anything, I'm being completely unbiased here. I don't have any stake in the issue nor do I pretend to care about people who have no impact on my life. You guys on the other hand have no evidence to support your assumptions that this change is going to be for the better or if there's going to be any real change at all. I'm sure you all WANT it to be a good change, but you can just look a bit further to see there's no real difference at all regardless of who won the elections. You may choose to believe it or you may not, it doesn't really matter to me.

Just like if you choose to believe Iran was really an evil country or a real threat (a lot of Asian and South American countries will disagree with you though), it doesn't really matter to me either. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was nowhere near as cruel or brutal as Saddam Hussein, nor should he be deserving of the same treatment. You should be more worried about another country with a real, identified, and tested nuclear arsenal run by an even bigger madman who doesn't give two cents about his country, not a country with a vested interest in itself but just so happened to not like the USA, Christianity, or Jews.

Again, I don't care. This is just an opinion based on history and an education outside of Western ideals. Seriously, not all of us hate that country you know.

IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2009, 03:57:38 am »

-snip-

This.
I really agree with this.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2009, 04:35:20 am »

Because that's what history has shown to happen. It's also basic politics. If anything, I'm being completely unbiased here. I don't have any stake in the issue nor do I pretend to care about people who have no impact on my life. You guys on the other hand have no evidence to support your assumptions that this change is going to be for the better or if there's going to be any real change at all. I'm sure you all WANT it to be a good change, but you can just look a bit further to see there's no real difference at all regardless of who won the elections. You may choose to believe it or you may not, it doesn't really matter to me.

By saying you believe this election won't matter, you've already formed an opinion about the nation and at least it's rulers, if not it's people.  You're calling the rulers corrupt and interchangeable, and calling the people idiots for not seeing what you apparently can see.  I'm being overly harsh with that, but don't pretend being aloof and cynical somehow makes your opinion unbiased.

Further, you believe this election doesn't matter because you don't know who the people vying for power are.  I don't usually give a flip about Ahmadinejad's rhetoric, precisely because it's just rhetoric.  Iran's President has no real power over foreign policy, only domestic policy and trade rights.  That's how Ahmadinejad got elected in the first place, promising to get inflation under control and put oil money in the people's pockets.  He failed at both of those, but spun enough nationalism to maintain the support of uniformed patriots.  (Americans will note the incredible irony here.)

The man probably replacing him, Mousavi, was Iran's last Prime Minister trough the 1980's, during the ungodly destructive and expensive war with Iraq.  He had no military power, he was just charged with paying for it.  And with America and Britain embargoing Iran's oil and maybe planning to topple the government (again), Mousavi actually managed to improve the GDP over what it was before the Revolution.

As if it isn't clear, it's the Supreme Leader who really runs the military and foreign negotiation.  Ayatollah Khamenei was Khomeini's heir apparent (don't let the names confuse you), and has proved himself an egotistical, myopic ass through his entire reign.  He has a lot of powerful enemies with more religious clout, and his belligerent, schizophrenic control of this election and response to it has brought all the detractors out of the woodwork.

Khamenei's principle opponent, Montazeri, has enough supporters that this firestorm could probably see Khamenei ousted, and maybe even Montazeri replacing him like the multi-million protesters have signed on for.  Why all this matters is that both Montazeri and Mousavi are strong champions of racial, gender, and economic equality.  No, neither of them are particularly fond of America or Israel, but they're both pragmatists - these are the guys who kept Iran afloat in the 1980s when people like Khamenei and Ahmadinejad threw it over a cliff.  They want to negotiate with the world and be a respected, not feared, country again.

We'll all know in about an hour how things will proceed from here.  Right now, Khamenei is giving a national Sabbath address, something he only does a couple times a year.  In it, he can only really say one of three things-

-Yeah, that election was all screwed up.  My bad, let's try this again.  Big smiles people.
-Everybody just calm down and wait a few weeks, we'll count some votes and get this sorted out.
-Praise be to Allah for my pal Mahmoud's reelection, now get your asses home before you're all shot.

Options 1 and 3 can only play to the favor of the protesters, because it would either just give them what they want, or inspire even more support since most of the police and military have threatened to desert en masse if ordered to violence.  Option 2 is just stalling for time, which might let things cool down, but when literally millions of people from every class and society are spending every day in the streets in solidarity, there is no room for compromise.

UPDATE: Khamenei went with Option 2.  Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.
BIGGER UPDATE: Early reports were mistaken!  He went with Option 3!  Everyone get your popcorn!

The irony is, if Ahmadinejad had just given a few more speeches and Khamenei left the vote alone, he probably would have been fairly reelected anyway.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 05:02:02 am by Aqizzar »
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umiman

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Re: The revolution is being televised.
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2009, 05:16:05 am »

I also feel offended you say I don't really know what's going on. Unlike you, I actually had to study Iran since middle school (and not just some paragraph in a text book) and I am very, very familiar with the customs and politics of Muslim countries. For heaven's sake, I had to bloody memorize the Al-Quran AND the bible because I was in a Methodist school in a Muslim country. Telling me I don't know what's going on is like me telling you you don't know who Bush is.

There was a really big argument here, but I realized that I still don't care and wasn't sure why I was typing it. So pfft.
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