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[Neonivek]

What? They are just Hermits. People who live alone!

Tell me we arn't doing what some people do to "Hags" and make them into a supernatural creature not even related to human beings.

If the Hermits are evil then the swamp should have a silent mental effect on all the dwarves that slowly drives them murderously insane.

[chinkeeyong]

the swamp should have a silent mental effect on all the dwarves that slowly drives them murderously insane.

Capital idea, sir.

[Byakugan01]

the swamp should have a silent mental effect on all the dwarves that slowly drives them murderously insane.

Capital idea, sir.

This is madness! No. This. Is! BOATMURDERED!

That pretty much gurantees every fort built in such a place ending up like that. Byakugan01 heartily approves! Better yet, make HFS findable on the bottomost level of a swamp when it can do that. The only sound shall be the laughter of thirsting dwarves and demon gods.

[RedWarrior0]

make HFS findable on the bottomost level of a swamp when it can do that. The only sound shall be the laughter of thirsting dwarves and demon gods.

Non-Mountain HFS. All kinds of Fun Swamp Beings!
Maybe it actually IS the gateway to Dwarven hell, but it's closed right now.

It'll be fun deciding on what the Hidden Fun Material could be... Maybe some kind of fungal growth that has solidified into a material with metal-like qualities: Fungite!

It would really be interesting if everything was bogged up (no pun intended) so that you would need to build solid ground for the wagons. Once realistic cave-ins are implemented, you would need a deep foundation so your castle doesn't sink into the swamp. Plenty of new critters could come from this idea: Giant Swamp Spider, Bog Turtle, Giant Bog Turtle, Fungusman, Turtleman, Giant Mosquitoe, Lantern Beast (carries a light of some sort to lure unwary travellers to their dooms), Watcher in the Water ("Don't disturb the water, Urist"), and the very generic sounding Swamp Creature.

[Vattic]

Personly I don't like how swamps are in game right now, when playing in one I don't get the impression its a swamp, just lots of fairly deep pools of water but as other have said it would require a rework of how water works to make swamps really swampy but then maybe not.

What? They are just Hermits. People who live alone!

Tell me we arn't doing what some people do to "Hags" and make them into a supernatural creature not even related to human beings.

This is one thing I didn't understand myself, hermits are not necessarily malevolent. Hags on the other hand are usually malevolent and in folklore they are supernatural beings, sometimes deities or spirits. A hag would fit the role described better than hermit I think. having to travel out there to get advice from such a hag might be interesting.

[Byakugan01]

Actually, there are species of spiders which live most of their lives underwater (not sure of the common name, would someone who doesn't have arachnophobia mind looking it up?), which could lead to interesting situations if Giant versions lived in the swamp. And had decent population/ cluster size-basically, imagine a giant cave spider that can hide underwater and drag it's prey underwater in ADDITION to the paralyzing bite and webbing ability. Spoilered to make the whole thing more readable and less of a wall of text.

By the way, here are a bunch of ways I thought of to make swamps-and in some specific cases bogs- in general much more dangerous.
Fungi:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

  Fungi aren't actually too common in swamps, or rather bogs; at least, they can't be too common or we would never get coal or bog mummies, both of which rely on the acidity of a bog preventing decomposition (infact, i do believe that sphagnum moss is acidic enough that it can be used for packing/covering wounds to prevent infection-would add an interesting dimension to healthcare).

Undead:
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Speaking of bog mummies, these could be a form of undead which *only* inhabits bogs and is classified as an ambush predator (to represent being hidden before their discovery). When curses/magic arc get implemented, then any corpse that gets dumped into such a bog could also end up transformed into a bog mummy-which could create problems if you kill that giant water(don't know actual term for species) spider over the water. Fungal stuff is pretty much out, at any rate (as far as I know).

Carnivorous Plants (RL basis):
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, one of the interesting things about bogs is the fact the soil/peat/etc is often very poor in nitrogen. This is the environment where carnivorous plants live and thrive, since they don't rely on soil bound nitrogen, but rather the nitrogen present in animals. Flytraps, sundews, and pitcher plants all live in this kind of environment-and larger versions could end up posing a significant hazard for a wandering dwarf. Making a pit and carefully growing a "garden" of these could also create a interesting way to deal with sieges. It might also be possible to collect the sweet secretions that sundews make to attract prey...at a risk, of course, for giant sundews. This could be used as an ingredient for cooking or as a base for liquor. 

Insects/Arthropods:
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another interesting addition would be diverse arthropod megafauna-giant dragonflies, millipedes, centipedes, and beetles. This really did exist at one time, and this would have been their preferred environment-or one of them, at any rate. Giant dragonflies would be fast aerial predators, while giant milipedes would be very tough, slow moving herbivores. Giant beetles could be either-both herbivorous and predatory beetles exist. Giant centipedes would be particularly nasty predators-not only would they be very fast (watch a centipede move-they are VERY fast), but they would also have a paralyzing bite they could employ. There is also a phylum of arthropod relatives known as velvet worms, which are many legged, predatory and soft-bodied animals which squirt a "glue" at their prey to immobilize them while the worm moves in to feed. All in all, it would be a nice addition to overall swamp biodiversity.

Amphibians:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Before reptiles dominated the land, amphibians did. Even after the advent of reptiles they were the dominant land vertebrates until the climate changed and became drier, favoring reptiles-and this didn't stop them from dominating in areas where crocs and other froms of semiaquatic predators couldn't (these giants managed to hold on through the cretaceous period). During this time, there were some truly fearsome beasts, such as these predators, all of which would be excellent additions for the "savage" equivalent, more so than giant frogs, salamanders, or newts (which don't really have the body structures for taking large prey items, with the possible exception of frogs). And in a savage bog or swamp that no one has dared to penetrate out of fear, they might still cling to existence in the worlds of DF. Remember, tales of dragons and the like are cosmopolitan, and need to have SOMEthing which inspired them. Alternately, nests of these in suspended animation might be a HFS hazard encountered while digging in the bogs, perhaps surrounded by layers of hardened peat-that was part of the reason some were able to survive where crocs could not, the ability to enter states of suspended animation. They might also do this during dry seasons if the bog dries up-making guessing where it's safe to dig FUN. These would also be able to survive in cold or freezing biomes, for the same reason-late autumn, they burrow into the muck, and reemerge in the spring.

Land/sea crocodiles:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Along with the above, it should be remembered that the crocodile family used to be far more diverse than they are today-with fully aquatic seagoing versions and terrestrial versions, such as baurusuchus [spoiler]

,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

adamantinasuchus

, pelagosaurus

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, metriorhyncus

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

,

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 and many others. Some of these would make excellent additions to swamps/bogs as land animals for savage biomes, as well as tropical forest savage creatures, which would be more dangerous on land than their extant friends since they are actually *built* for the land (or water), rather than being amphibious.

Megapredators:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Continuing with the roaring, savage blasts from the past, I would like to suggest giant crocodiles-and when I say giant, I do mean GIANT. There have been crocodilians big enough to make today's worst saltwater crocodiles look like pansies. Sarchosuchus and deinosuchus would be excellent candidates or models for what these should be like. Deinosuchus in particular could just be summed up as a GIANT alligator. These things would be large enough to kill and eat elephants-with few or any injuries. Rare, but deadly as hell where they do occur in game. Obviously, tropics only-and the same should probably go for the other crocs unless they can burrow/hibernate in the winter.

These are my ideas for what to add to make swamps that much more dangerous, in conduction with the previous ideas. And some nice benefits too (a new booze!). Also, second pic (marked in spoilers) for the land/sea crocs is a creature called adamantinosuchus. Make of that what you will, but that *is* its real name.

[Pilsu]

Personly I don't like how swamps are in game right now, when playing in one I don't get the impression its a swamp, just lots of fairly deep pools of water but as other have said it would require a rework of how water works to make swamps really swampy but then maybe not.

Well, having an aquifer in the top layer is a good start

[Byakugan01]

True, but it doesn't really give the risk of making a wrong step on what appears to be solid ground-but is actually quicksand (or a mire pit). Which is what I want us to be able to experience. We could also include tar under some of the pools, to give a risk to anything that goes to drink from them. FYI, tar pits are often covered by a layer of water, and it's generally what comes to drink that gets caught in them. Tar pits could also spawn undead skeletal creatures, perhaps as is or when the water layer gets drained.  Maybe dire versions of normal animals in skeletal form.

[Luke_Prowler]

Byakugan, those are some truely terrifying beast. Of course, you can't have bad without good, so what would be some creatures that could be found in normal or peaceful swamps?

[chucks]

Byakugan, those are some truely terrifying beast. Of course, you can't have bad without good, so what would be some creatures that could be found in normal or peaceful swamps?

Fairies, a la Legend of Zelda style!

[Sunken]

Byakugan, those are some truely terrifying beast. Of course, you can't have bad without good, so what would be some creatures that could be found in normal or peaceful swamps?

Fairies, a la Legend of Zelda style!

Or, Dunsany style.

[Byakugan01]

Well, the idea of good/evil biomes is going to be scrapped and replaced by spheres as I understand, and the original idea was to make a "deathworld" type of swamp. By the way, aside from bog mummies most would go into the savage type of biome, and not evil, since these are really natural creatures.

However, that being said, there are some creatures that would be good candidates for inhabiting a swamp that would NOT turn the swamps into OMG WTF IT's EATING MY FACE! kinds of places.

Quadrupeds:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Swamps in tropical regions could be inhabited by the capybara, the world's largest rodent. It's semiaquatic, so it would do well there. It could also be added as a river creature in tropical regions. Tapirs might also be at home, but I'm pretty sure they prefer the actual tropical forest proper. Adding in alligators and crocs-who I don't think inhabit swamps atm-would also work well, since you can find them in non-savage biomes as it stands anyway. Gharials might be a good choice as an addition-they're not crocs or alligators, but a unique type of crocodilian that mostly feeds on fish. Not harmless, but it shouldn't attack your dwarves as readily as the crocs/gators we have now. It goes without saying this animal is restricted to hot climates. Caimans, also tropical, would be good to add in-they're much smaller than regular crocodiles, so they wouldn't be quite so dangerous. Snapping turtles might work-they grow quite large, enough so that they don't need to be classified as vermin (certainly larger than a hoary marmot!). They would still be mildly dangerous, of course, but that's to be expected from something with a strong set of jaws like that-and they do occur in temperate regions. Now, bears and other wildlife you see in forests can also live in swamps, so many of the creatures in temperate biomes at the moment may be able to live in swamps as well. You might be able to find monitor lizards, but I'm not sure on that one. Panthers (cougars) are also a definite candidate for inclusion. Potentially, you might see freshwater stingrays or dolphins, although they would be better suited as tropical river creatures.

Snakes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Snakes aren't exactly uncommon in swamps. Cottonmouths and water snakes both come to mind as creatures to include-the former would pose some threat to our dwarves, but being able to embark with a small amount of antivenin would solve that problem. You might also find some rattlesnakes in there, as rattlers aren't limited to the desert (In fact, up by where I live is in the range of the timber rattle snake-and the biome around here would be classified as temperate forest). Garter snakes might be found as vermin, and you might find anacondas in the water in tropical regions. These guys (all of them sans garter snakes) could also help out by hunting vermin if caught and tamed-no more catsplosion, and it would be realistic of the role these animals play naturally. Watersnakes might eat your fish once animals eating gets implemented, however. Pythons of some sort might also be present in tropical swamps, and go after larger prey-and a giant version might go after your dwarves. Like the giant amphibians in savage biomes, they would go underground during the winter in temperate/cold climates. It might be safe to actually dig them up and catch them at this time, by the way, but you should prepare for at least a few dwarves to get bitten if you try and do that. Corn snakes would also be a nonvenomous variant, and you might find winged/feathered serpents here in good biomes or its equivalents-possibly tameable and should give a pretty valuable hide/feathers for crafts in the case of the later.

Waterfowl/Birds:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Didn't mentioned them before because I didn't think of them as being fit to add to the savage version (or rather, didn't think of them at all), but waterfowl should also be present and abundant, at least when the biome isn't savage-they might get hunted pretty fast if they are foolish enough to land anywhere near a giant amphibian. Coots, ducks, geese, herons, egrets, and other waterfowl could be year round residents of the swamp, or seasonal migrants if that gets implemented. A safe source of food, and also-if they breed there-you might be able to gather eggs and even hatch them yourself to start up a breeding program. You could also add cormorants as a kind of waterfowl. They might also be trainable to assist with fishing once more complex fishing gets implemented: in some places, they have been used to catch and retrieve fish. Would certainly make fishing much more interesting. Ospreys would also be interesting to have around, though they would mainly keep to themselves and eat fish-might swipe a fish from dwarves or an outdoor stockpile every now and then. Hawks and regular eagles might prey on the waterfowl every now and then, as well as snakes and vermin.

Animal men/Demihumans:

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Nagas, as found in Buddist/ Indian tradition, would likely inhabit "good" swamps-far from being vicious, supposedly the Nagas were the ones who kept the Heart Sutra after the Bhudda's death and gave it to Nagarjuna (founder of the Mahayana tradition of Bhuddism). As can be seen in the wiki link, though, they have also been described as violent creatures, but we already have snakemen for that-and additionally, Nagas can also be represented as purely serpentine. You might actually end up performing quests for them in adventure mode, or seeking them out for advice in the same. You could also get sent to retrieve a scroll or whatnot that they have in their possession, much like the story that Nagarjuna traveled to retrieve the heart sutra from them. In fortress mode, Nagas would leave you alone, except if you began to destroy their homes somehow-and THEN they would start attacking you. They might also help fight off sieges if you stay on good terms with them, and carry out minor trade once in a while-not yearly, unless they have a preference for one or more items you produce. They might also build underwater dwellings/dig underwater burrows to live in. It would be an interesting bonus if they kept/would buy snakes as pets-set up shop near a naga burrow, and get the benefits of pest control for free.

Generic plants/new crops:

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Papyrus, papyrus, papyrus. Growing in tropical swamps and along tropical rivers as well, this could be harvested and processed into paper-the dwarves are easily advanced enough to do it, and it would create a material that the bookkeeper could use for his task-might also solve the problem of him gaining stat bonuses/leveling the skill at a ridiculous rate.  For a more mundane crop, temperate climes might produce cranberries, while regular sundews-not giant-could also serve as a source of sugar in either (sundews aren't limited to the tropics). You could also grow muck roots here, obviously, and rice would also be an option for harvesting-brewable into sake (which is simply rice wine), millable to create flour, or you could use it directly and cook it. Lotuses might produce a high-value brew and would only be findable in some variant of the good biome.

[Shaostoul]

I like the idea of terrible swamps of death. I think it adds to the whole mystery and lore sort of thing. "He who enters the swamp of stench never returns!" or what about a swamp like from Princess Bride?

The creatures should be too hard right? Make sure there is ramps everywhere. Can you make stuff so specific? Like a certain type of undead creature that it is constantly rotting and pouring with miasma?

I like it. I support the perfect environment for the swampthing mega-beast.

[chucks]

I like the ideas about birds and waterfowl.  You should not only be able to tame and train cormorants, but also falcons and hawks and pigeons.  Some birds could assist with small game hunting of rabbits and hoary marmits and foxes and other such small woodland creatures.  Pigeons have the obvious use of training to convey correspondence with the Mountainhome.

Nagas and animal men and demihumans would be very interested to have mild diplomacies in dwarf mode somewhat like adventure mode, but you could make offers and demands and they could make offers and demands of you similar to civ style diplomacies.  Perhaps smaller groups of these creatures could be treated as a very minor nation similar to elves and humans and goblins and kobolds and such.

[Pilsu]

Are animal men even intelligent enough to have diplomacy? Don't they still work in basic packs?