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[Duke 2.0]

Now build a fortress on it.

-It should rather be impossible since there is nothing to build a foundation upon. Though it makes me wonder if there should be places so dangerous that they allow you to take more people with you when you Embark (or some way to have larger Embark crews such as funding them through fortress mode)

When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.

[Derakon]

To make Duke's point in a different way, sink enough pilings and eventually you'll have a stable foundation.

[Felblood]

Arrows are the only way to kill carp without risk to yourself

If you know how to swim (or have decent weaponry and combat skills) Carp are no problem and are in fact weak.

I meant in fortess mode, where dwarves who enter the water are lost causes.

Naw lets not take advantage of glitches in the system that will eventually be removed.

I already considered that, and the problem would instantly solve itself as soon as it arose.

Fixing the combat AI to recognize things like "I can/can't breathe in the water" and "My opponent can/can't breathe in water", and then exploit (or at least compensate for) these issues, will resolve any problems that might arise from this shortcut, which is only intended to last until that hypothetical state of affairs exists.

Creatures will still live in water after the AI get's fixed, so there's no reason not to create more aquatic life forms.

[Neonivek]

there's no reason not to create more aquatic life forms

No what I mean is that we shouldn't create aquatic life based around the game's failings because they will eventually be fixed.

You can make it AFTER it is fixed as a easter egg but that is around it. (Some sort of Fish that confuses people into jumping into the lake)

[Felblood]

Why not?

We're not using the bug as a concept, we're using the bug as the means to execute a concept that would otherwise be difficult to execute without generating redundant code that will be rendered obsolete when the bug is fixed.

If you want to do this thing, this is the best way to do it.

[Byakugan01]

Creatures can attack diagonally across z-levels already-I've seen it happen with skeletal sharks, for one. (and the recruit did *not* jump into the water). I remember reading on a wiki page-perhaps for the 2D version-the saltwater crocodiles would pull their victims into the water. By altering a bit how wrestling works, to include being able to pick up/carry your opponent if successful, then it should be a simple matter to make this actually work properly. Until then, though, the bug makes for an excellent simulation. Keep in mind, however, that these places are going to be an absolute nightmare to embark in-this basically requires ditching the anvil for as much wood or stone as you can possibly carry. that actually sounds like FUN...in both ways.

[Neonivek]

Why not?

We're not using the bug as a concept, we're using the bug as the means to execute a concept that would otherwise be difficult to execute without generating redundant code that will be rendered obsolete when the bug is fixed.

If you want to do this thing, this is the best way to do it.

The problem is your adding the creature twice. (or worse adding redundant code that will be gone)

It isn't a good use of time and can create a backlash when said content needs to be removed.

[Byakugan01]

No more than for hippos and other creatures that can attack from the water and presumably drag people in...and they're already in game. So are alligators and crocs, for that matter.

[Neonivek]

No more than for hippos and other creatures that can attack from the water and presumably drag people in...and they're already in game. So are alligators and crocs, for that matter.

They are however creatures added to the game because they fulfill an important possition that don't involve Dwarves tackling water. Their existance, power, and possition are not tempered by the glitch in anyway.

Your asking for a creature that only functions for as long as the glitch remains.

[Byakugan01]

Not really. What I'm thinking of is leaving them as-is for now, THEN when the time comes that creatures can pick up/drag opponents through wrestling (and not just throw them) it can simply be seen to that these animals can do it. See the difference? It merely uses the glitch until the glitch and wrestling are both fully fixed (maybe giving grasp to their mouths would work?), and then they function PROPERLY. Maybe even dragging their prey down multiple z levels. And sharks will cease to be a threat as well once the glitch is fixed unless this is implemented, so it's a valid idea. Carp are glitched, but these creatures shouldn't be. If anything, they should function IN THE SAME WAY as sharks would, or perhaps more closely like a crocodile.

[Untelligent]

Of course, it's always likely that the glitch will be long since fixed by the time something like this gets put in, and then the dragging attacks can be added in a more sensible way.

[Pilsu]

Not all swamps should be evil

Having ways of forcing the worldgen into turning them into hellholes is more appropriate and generally more useful. Sphere relation is almost mandatory but spheres needn't be random. Being able to create templates for this sort of thing would allow variety too. It'll quickly get boring if every evil swamp tries to eat you. Some of them could just be spooky with permanent thick fog that makes it very hard to see your enemies and unnerves some dwarves whenever they go out


Dragging enemies into the water would have uses even after the carp bug is fixed

[Untelligent]

Of course not all swamps should be evil.

I think the intention was that curses and other sphere-related stuff were just to replace the current generic good/evil areas; these would be overall roughly as common as the good/evil areas are now (and potentially moddable to be more or less common as is now), and there would of course be "normal" areas all over the place. Curses and blessings will be the exception, not the norm.

And each would have a specific effect, like those you mentioned.

On the other end of the alignment spectrum, the swampwater might be perpetually pure and safe to drink (or perhaps a booze swamp), or the local spirit of the swamp offers you the sacred sock-bludgeon Schmexcalibur if you have protected the swamp from harm or taint for ten years.

And of course, regional curses and blessings could happen for all the other biomes, too. As was said earlier in the topic, this sort of stuff was talked to death a while back.

[SirHoneyBadger]

ThreeToe's ideas concerning the Spirits of the Forest might be relevant to this discussion.

[Craftling]

Now build a fortress on it.

-It should rather be impossible since there is nothing to build a foundation upon. Though it makes me wonder if there should be places so dangerous that they allow you to take more people with you when you Embark (or some way to have larger Embark crews such as funding them through fortress mode)

If you could fill the swamp in with gravel or loam, then it would be possible to build on.
Quote
Hermits walk the depths of these places, luring nearby travelers to their doom
I dont think that all hermits should try to kill you. Some might join your fortress or give you quests in adventure mode. But some hermits might just burn down your fortress or assassinate your adventurer.