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Author Topic: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.  (Read 35989 times)

Goron

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2009, 10:50:47 pm »

You know, most of you guys are talking about hiring people, while I usually work with my own character and natives only.
Seriously, my character became a beast after a while, although...

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ductape

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #136 on: June 24, 2009, 01:26:04 am »

somebody please make a roguelike tactics game in the spirit of JA2.

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Zangi

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #137 on: June 24, 2009, 05:20:29 am »

somebody please make a roguelike tactics game in the spirit of JA2.



I'd hit that.
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Goron

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #138 on: June 24, 2009, 08:34:20 am »

somebody please make a roguelike tactics game in the spirit of JA2.


You could just make a ja2 mod. Set it so you only have your IMP character. Create new maps. Make lots of new quests... and viola, Jagged Alliance Rogue

Sowelu

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #139 on: June 24, 2009, 12:40:07 pm »

Yeah, but games with realistic damage really suck in roguelikes...
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Keiseth

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #140 on: June 24, 2009, 02:44:58 pm »

Yeah, but games with realistic damage really suck in roguelikes...

It would subvert the standard aspects of a Roguelike, but what if you implemented a quick save / rollback? You get to watch yourself die in hilariously tragic ways while still having a small chance to beat the game!

Still, a JA2-inspired Roguelike would be incredibly good.
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Sowelu

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #141 on: June 24, 2009, 02:46:38 pm »

Prince of Persia, the Sands of Roguelike!
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Keiseth

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #142 on: June 24, 2009, 02:51:55 pm »

That's precisely what I was thinking! It wouldn't revolutionize Roguelikes or anything, but it'd be damned fun.
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Goron

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #143 on: June 24, 2009, 02:52:51 pm »

Yeah, but games with realistic damage really suck in roguelikes...

It would subvert the standard aspects of a Roguelike, but what if you implemented a quick save / rollback? You get to watch yourself die in hilariously tragic ways while still having a small chance to beat the game!

Still, a JA2-inspired Roguelike would be incredibly good.
Even with the base ja 2 1.13 mod platform, you can play it like a roguelike. You could just make one IMP, never train militia, always destroy all equipment you leave behind, restart if you die...
There are many 'self-inflicted mods' you can do. Check these out for ideas: http://ja2guides.wikidot.com/mini-mods

I've tried playing with only a squad of IMPs, no save/loading, no training militia, no AIM/MERC/NPCs, no alt-s (quick sell), destroy every item in a sector before I leave it, with some adjustments to difficulty (moved difficulty based on sectors controlled to the other factors, since I never really controlled any sectors, that way it would still be difficult)
I've never made it past about three cities playing that way.

EDIT: and 'past three cities' should really read: "I've never captured the equivalent of about three cities" Since I never held a city sector for more than a day or two. Playing that way requires a lot of hit and run - a lot of attacking and killing one or two guys, grabbing their ammo, and getting the heck out of there... Otherwise you need to rely on Tony for most of your supplies unless you want to get really ballsy and take Drassen airport, buy from bobby rays, and hold it for 24 hours for your equipment to arrive (turn off Pablo steals from shipments if you play this way... trust me).

Oh, also, I lied before, I actually played with one safe sector where I could store equipment: Estoni. BUT, the queens forces could still move through it, occupy it, attack it... so it was not safe for me to rest in... I onyl allowed myself to not delete equipment that I left there...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 02:57:46 pm by Goron »
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Granite26

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #144 on: June 28, 2009, 11:26:26 am »

Mostly a reply to the OP, as I didn't read pages 3-8...

Anywho:

Silent Storm is easily my favorite tactics game, followed by Xcom and then FFT.  (Xcom is a better game overall, but SS is better tactics).  I've never played JA though, so who knows.

Things that work (for me) in tactics games:

Gladius had some awesome innovations.  Critical hits in the control of the player gave some vg aspects to the game, without breaking the tactics.  Second, it was gladiator matches.  This meant that there were reasonable restrictions on who could play a given fight.  Taken broadly, imagine sea battles or air battles or gladiator 'animal only' fights, or whole sections of the map that only characters of a certain rank can get to (think a church mission series that only lets paladins or clerics in)  FFTA does this, but randomly.

FFT nailed advancement hardcore.  You didn't necessarily get more powerful with more job points, you got more options to choose from.  Personally, I don't think any class should ever be obsolete, but I liked the extra classes.

Xcom and FFT both had excellent party/mission danger setups.  In xcom, when your crew was wounded, but not killed, he'd be out of action for a few missions.  Good reason to pick and choose who you sent, plus, there were 'easier' missions you could train new recruits on.  Finally, the possibility of needing more than one crew at a time meant that a large force of highly trained people all fit into those little 12 person ships.  FFT had a similar mechanism with the healing.  There was a critical 'lose' condition that fell far short of TPD in each mission that added a bit of urgency.



Things I hated:
Leveling up being useless
Characters with special abilities that come and go(or come in after you've set a max-party highly trained group).  If you are going to require me to bring the new guy on the mission, don't make me leave one of my favored units at home.
Japanese plotlines
In FFT, every character could, and often did get every class.  It seems poor balance to me, but there's never a GOOD reason to specialize characters in roles.  The only time this doesn't happen is when characters are broadly limited



Things I'd like to see more of:
Reasons to train more than a normal max-party size group. (Easiest way to do this is to create a strong RockPaperScissors chain or two, and let the player know what he's going up against.  Going into the graveyard?  Bring an extra cleric... etc  Other methods include race/sex/etc restrictions on enough maps to warrant training the full set up, and multiple missions at once that interact)
Depth to the class chart.   One good thing about Disgaia.   It was damn near impossible to max out your characters in that game.  Unfortunately, 'maxing' the characters out was simply a matter of leveling characters up to lvl 10^10^10^10, with nothing to strive for, and no interesting fights when you got there.

mendonca

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #145 on: June 29, 2009, 07:47:11 am »

So I started Jagged Alliance 2 v 1.13 up in the last week (for the first time, have played 1.12 quite a bit). I am really excited, it is like starting again, the people who put this together have done a wonderful job.

Anyway I thought I would regale you all with the first three weeks of our campaign (Novice, No Drassen Counter Attack, Great at Bobby Ray’s).


IMP (expert N.Ops), Wolf and Fox land in Omerta, with the three loitering goons being quickly dispatched to the netherworld. Wolf’s UMP is coming in really handy, and also the intrinsic knowledge of his chances to hit the enemy is very useful from a tactical point of view. Make contact with Miguel and take Ira with us to Chitzena, hoping to hook up with the arms dealer along the way to try and get some goodies.

First encounter against 4 enemies in the wilderness, should be straightforward. After we have taken the first four enemies down it is clear something is a little bit amiss, as we are pinned back against the undergrowth by approximately 12 -15 guys. Seriously contemplating retreat, as we back off they walk in to our fire (coming from all sides!) and our firearms superiority (i.e. Wolfs UMP) eventually wins over (they are all packing .38s, so it seems). We take a single .38 special, and some ammo, and head to San Mona. I’m worried about running out of weaponry before I get to Chitzena.

Make it to San Mona easily enough, we manage to get a Mac-10 and three pistol suppressors from Tony. Awesome.

Confused by the lack of single shot on the Mac-10, this get’s handed to Ira as a support weapon, should the bullets need to start flying under the moonlight (love the new level of detail on the weapons).

Take Chitzena after reloading once (Ira died from one shot as a mercenary attacked us from behind! I’ll really have to start watching our flanks properly, I see …). Expert N.O. IMP (with NV2) and Wolf are doing some seriously understated murder with their silenced weapons. Most fall without seeing us (helps that they are not really armoured yet).

Running out of money, and not really getting enough to renew Fox and Wolf’s contracts comfortably (i.e. 2 wks, and have enough for new weapons), we need to go back and try for Drassen. Tony is not in on the way back through San Mona, so we press on regardless. We pick up Igor from Omerta. Drassen falls at night easily over the course of three days. On taking the second sector, my Militia comes with me! 25 people fighting for the name of Enrico Chivaldori mop things up in a matter of minutes.

Igor is a killing machine (11 kills after 3 battles, he’s catching up everybody else).

We go and get the SAM site, and defend it from the blackshirts. One blackshirt retreats in to the woods.

As we enter the woods to hunt him down, I see a little notification “… beware of snipers” (or something).

I see what they mean. Wolf gets perforated a couple of times, he manages to get safe behind a tree as Igor locates the enemy. Fox fixes wolf, Igor sneaks up to the sniper and knocks the shit out of him whilst he is laid on the deck peering through his scope (Igor cleared quite a bit of open ground to get to him, very funny). Wrenching the M24 from his grasp and filling him full of 9mm diameter holes, we move on. Wolf gets the rifle (fitted with 10x zoom).

Thor joins us.

We then go to Chitzena SAM, picking up a used Steyr Aug (with 2x scope) from Tony. Igor gets this.

Under cover of night we take the SAM, picking them off one at a time with silenced pistols. As they thin down and dark corners become harder to find, we bring out the Assault rifles and the M24. Blammo. He can’t miss with that thing? (the Steyr or the M24?).

And that’s where we are.

I am very impressed with the way the gameplay has been developed, I love the attention to detail, I am just fearful of how my tactics need to develop once Deidranna’s troops start to get the weapons that I am using. I might even have to turn the counterattack on, the difficulty up, and start again.


For all those who seek answers to the OPs question, get this game on your computer and play it (for it is clearly not played by enough people). Please, you will thank me.
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Toady Two

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #146 on: June 29, 2009, 08:26:44 am »

I decided to check out JA2 after reading this thread but I'm using v. 1.12. The vanilla version from GOG. I wanted to get a hang of things in vanilla at first but now I'm really soaked into this game and I'm afraid I'll have to finish it before trying 1.13.

What do you recommend? I doing pretty well on novice but starting over with only pistols sounds terrible for me.
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mendonca

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #147 on: June 29, 2009, 08:41:36 am »

I decided to check out JA2 after reading this thread but I'm using v. 1.12. The vanilla version from GOG. I wanted to get a hang of things in vanilla at first but now I'm really soaked into this game and I'm afraid I'll have to finish it before trying 1.13.

What do you recommend? I doing pretty well on novice but starting over with only pistols sounds terrible for me.

Head straight for Meduna with Bull, a knife and some brass knuckles.
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jnecros

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #148 on: June 29, 2009, 02:06:11 pm »

I loved the Silent Storm series soo damn much. I purchased the shamful Hammer and Sickle and Nightwatch at full price on spec.(two craptastic Nival Interactive productions) Man getting burned like that sucks..I still play Silent Storm every now and again. Somebody mentioned Gladius, which I am a huge fan of as well, likely my favorite Tactical rpg of all time..they really need to make a new one, it would make a killer MMO setting IMO
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Goron

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Re: What makes a good Tactics game? Also, Jagged Alliance 2.
« Reply #149 on: June 29, 2009, 02:19:35 pm »

 :'( *sobbing*
Oh my go-  :'( guys I have horrible news  :'(
Barry took a bullet too many and has died  :'( *balls eyes out*

It was a simple mission, we were attacking Alma's NE sector from the East by day. We had heli-dropped in two sectors away to the East just before dawn, fought our way through the first sector with no problems, then entered Alma. My men were still rested even after that first engagement. We were able to top off our ammunition too so everything seemed great.

When we entered the city, we were immediately detected by a sentry which I dropped near instantly.


This campaign I've been using 'light' AR's much more frequently than the heavy battle rifles I normally use. So much of my squad was decked out with Commando's or M4's. I also had an FN Minimi as support, an M16a2 for my designated markswoman, but a regular smg (aug para) and a mini-14 in my 2 man squad 2 (couldn't afford to buy a morter and nade launcher for them yet, they are my intended heavy support team- god I wish I had the explosives with them... woulda made a hell of a difference in the battle.

After that first kill, things seemed to be going smoothly, I fanned my team out taking what (little) cover was available.


But things got sticky really quickly. I was engaged from two different areas. no one was in a good defensive position yet. Although Barry and I were 'covering' the rest of the team's movement from near some rocks, I wouldn't say we were 'entrenched' too well. Barry was effectively exposed to fire from our left flank since he was in a position to cover the mountainous corner to our right. His only other choice of position with cover would have been the smaller rock closer to the cliff, but that would have  limited his line of fire too much. Scope and MD were pretty much in the open, taking the most fire- forcing them to hunker down in the open.  The only thing going for them was the long range between them and the enemy positions. Wolf and Grizzly, Bull and Dimitri didn't take any of the initial fire and were able to continue movement south to the lightly wooded area and into cover.


Wolf started supporting MD and Scope with covering fire from behind a tree, while Grizzly, Bull, and Dimitri continued movement South and West. MD, my Minimi gunner, was able to get his composure and started spitting 5.56 at the enemy in great quanitities. Scope, my designated markswoman, strayed from her role and essentially acted as an LMG gunner too. At that point, with their exposed position, they became less concerned about killing individual enemies, and focused more on suppressing the growing number of enemy combatants. Barry and I were keeping our hands full on the right flank, doing our best to keep the enemy by the cliff occupied, but our angle prevented us from laying fire on a lot of the guys that were blasting away at MD and Scope.
This was a situation where I was both thankful for being equipped with 'smaller' AR's while at the same time wishing for heavier firepower. The m4's (and commandos, but ill call them m4's too) were good for throwing lead down range fast, which was good for keeping the enemy's suppressed, but, the long range had a severe impact on accuracy. Paradox if I ever saw one...

This is a situation where I still argue with myself whether I should have employed better 'Fire and manuver' tactics or not... With MD and Scope pinned down and in the open, I had the option of deploying smoke to provide concealment in order to cover a tactical retreat to the south (away from fire, and into cover)... But, as I saw it, there were several problems that would have presented:

1) Assuming all went well, I'd have left myself and Barry pretty much alone. with limited cover and no space for maneuver. (Well, thats not entirely true, I possibly could have ducked into the mine entrance, but that would have put the team two teamates less for the remainder of the fight- two very good shooters less at that)

2) Pretty much everyone capable was shooting as fast and hard at the enemy as possible. I was focusing less on killing and more on keeping heads down. For example, had I switched tactics and fired directed shots at specific enemies, I may have successfully killed one enemy for each shooter (best case scenario) in the round, but that would have left too many enemies with full APs ready to return the favor. So to deploy smoke would leave me (at least) one shooter down for the round...

3) That would not have been too harsh a situation (1 shooter down for a round), except that the best person for throwing smoke was likely Scope or MD... MD was my primary shooter for suppression fire, his Minimi was the best tool I had out there for the purpose and I didn't want it to stop shooting, and even so, both he and Scope were consistently low on APs from return fire, so I am not even sure if I'd have been able to get them to toss smoke in the first place, and if they did, they might have been stuck in a crouched position cuz they lacked time to get back prone after the throw- and that would prolly be near fatal.

4) And had I used someone else to toss smoke, I'd risk missing good placement due to the toss range, making me have to throw more. Throwing more by itself wasn't an issue, all of my teammates carry two smoke grenades each... the lack of constant fire downrange from people busy throwing was the issue. Regardless, Barry (closest to the smoke 'target') was in no position to be leaving prone for the same reason as MD and Scope.

5) Finally, even if I did get smoke in place, I'd have to wait for it to spread a little, then MD and Scope would have to stand up, and run across a field... something I doubt their limited APs would let them do too well before they got shot to pieces and/or forced back down.

So... I didn't deploy smoke... wise or not, I am still unsure- but there's no going back to change it now. Things were getting sticky fast. Bull, Dimitri, and Grizzly continued moving south and west, intent on coming around to flank the growing number of red and black shirts to the north. Problem is, they bumped into an enemy flanking maneuver... luckily my men moved from cover to cover, so I got the 'drop' on the baddies.
(*note: I adjusted image a little to better reflect situation)

Things by this point were pretty bleak. MD, Scope, and Barry had all been hit at least once. I'd already thrown a grenade or two by the corner of the cliff, to less than desired effect (many of the enemy had been 'pushed back' to out of my firing angle). Barry was stuck taking the heaviest fire because he had a better (or worse, depending on how you want to look at it) firing angle  around the cliff. For every enemy we dropped, two seemed to take his place (I am pretty sure the sector got reinforced from the north mid-fight).

Grizzly was actually forced to pull back a little when he got bum rushed by two redshirts from between the buildings to the south. Wolf was frantically shooting in all direction trying to cover his teammates, he was in an advantageous position in the sense that he had a line of fire to near every enemy, while taking pretty much no fire himself. He would often fire a burst to the north to support MD and Scope, and then fire another West to support Grizzly in the same round.

Bull and Dimitri were able to continue moving west. Dimitri was (thank god) equipped with a lot of 9mm tracer rounds, so he could walk his shots into the group farthest south pretty easily with huge 12+ round autofires. That allowed Bull to hop from tree to tree to get in closer to a point that he was able to take over the suppression role himself. Since he had a semi-auto mini-14, he shouldered it, and drew his glock 18. He auto fired his entire 15 round magazine and reloaded each round for four rounds- until he ran out of ammo. But his ammo lasted long enough for Dimitri to get in closer to finish the group off with a little help from Grizzly...

During all this some horrible things happened...

Scope and MD both got shot up pretty bad... and I mean bad. Their own fire started falling off as their injuries grew and APs fell. Wolf had been busy providing support for Grizzly for a bit, which meant he was providing less cover for MD and Scope. Add to that an enemy grenade that landed directly next to Barry that exploded, sending him and me flying. Think that was all pretty bad? Think again, it got worse: Barry had dropped his backpack containing all of our high explosives when the engagement started... ...and he never moved from that spot. Something in his pack went off, creating a secondary explosion to the first grenade. That sucked.


Before Bull, Dimitri, and Grizzly managed to finish overrunning the enemy's right flank, Barry took his last bullet. Two strong bursts from the group by the building took him out.

But his death seemed to create a resolve to win in our hearts... and we pulled through. Bull, Dimitri, and Grizzly swarmed the left flank, Wolf advanced a little as well, and between the angry fire from the woefully injured MD, Scope, and me (Goron), we were able to pacify most of the immediate threat.

But Barry was not alive to make the final push with us, moving in to the town proper...

R.I.P. Barry Ungar

(*note: Images are not to scale. Drawn from memory. Sequence of events are approximate in timing, but accurate in detail.)
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