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[Toady One]

So, if you were curious about Armok, the page and binaries still exist, I just haven't figured out how/if I want to place the thing on the main page, since it isn't really a game, though some people found it entertaining.  You can find it HERE.

DF is about 7 releases ahead of where Armok was, at the sacrifice of some body detail, 3D graphics, random creatures, material detail and the half-baked magic, mostly.  I'm sure some, but not all, of the non-graphical information will enter DF at some point.  3D graphics is a time sink, and even tiles won't be added unless they are necessary for some reason.  However, the graphics weren't the reason I decided to move over to DF (it doesn't really take *that* long).  It was just the base code.  A lot of it is very old and horrible, and I didn't correct bugs often enough in my enthusiasm to add new features.  With DF, I'm going to try to be more responsible, though new features should go in regularly once it settles down a bit.

[SkeleTony]

Well, the 3D stuff...while interesting, IS unecessary. However, I think that implementing an option for 2D tiles IS a necessity. Ascii may have a primitive charm to it and probably speeds up developement...and the game will be great(just like LCS is) with or without tiles, but I think I speak for a LOT of people in saying that in a VISUAL game(and DF cetainly IS that. Any non-IF game is a visual one), you need to be able to easily identify what's what. A red "g" may well symbolize a "gremlin" and a green "g" may well symbolize a "goblin" and all that but after a while, with a multitude of creatures and items, it just becomes a headache, and imagination-stifling to try and sort out what colored letter symbolizes what item or monster.

That and tiles just look 100x better.

Apparently there are a bunch of "Ascii purists" over at the Underdogs site that think DF has especially BAD ascii(I have no idea what they are talking about since ascii is ascii to me!? *Shrug*)btw.

[ August 14, 2006: Message edited by: SkeleTony ]

[Toady One]

He he he, CERTAIN tiles can look better.

I grew up with both kinds of games, so I'm ambivalent about the look from an aesthetic standpoint.  Development is a bit faster in ASCII, although I understand that people have strong feelings one way or the other about it.  In the end, once things are more stable, changing the underlying framework to support both models is feasible.  Since graphics take a bit longer, doing it while interfaces are still being changed all the time would cause a lot of hassles.  It's not a concern I'm dismissing by any means though.

As far as all this BAD ASCII stuff is concerned, I'm waiting for people with complaints to come by and voice them here.  A lot of the complaints seem to disappear when they actually play the game -- the screenshots can look messy or daunting, but some of the little flickers and animations help a bit (as well as the unvaried ground tiles option for some).  Some people have a visceral reaction to the IBM extended ASCII, but I have no idea how to make this game work with only 128 characters.

A very legitimate complaint now is my letter "choice" for a lot of the creatures.  A bright white U is a human diplomat but also a unicorn.  A gray H is various things.  A bright green g is a gremlin and an elite goblin (cross)bowman.  With the animals, the system of choosing "realistic" colors and the first letter of the name breaks down very quickly.  More abstract groupings might be needed (you can change these now if you want in "raw\objects\creature_*.txt").  Outside of dwarf mode, a lot of the melee units might need their colors equated.  Especially annoying is the swordsman=peasant coloration.  This came from having 2 tiles for dwarf soldier vs. worker, but only the 'U' for humans.  There could just be a sort of melee/ranged color perhaps, since these are the things most important in adventure mode.

For ease of use, I could add a new object file that changes the tiles over the existing creature defs, so you can have them all listed next to each other.  or maybe even an in-game editor...  though my experience with having editors during alpha in armok was quite painful...

[ August 14, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[flap]

Toady does definitally has its own style for using ASCII : There is extented IBM, but also He tries to show has much as possible, and even use different symbols for the same object (for exemple the rough ground, the herbs outside). That is Toady's style. He like profusion. We fine the thing in the detail in names of things, lists of minerals...

It is definitally different from what other roguelike progammer are doing. But it does not mean that its bad. Some audacious comparison : What have people told when they first saw picasso's painting ? agh what a mess. But some really found something great it.

So basically, yeaah, thus use might limit the game's succes. But well, for now it has not been such a bad start ! So why bother.

[ August 14, 2006: Message edited by: flap ]

[SkeleTony]

Yeah, like I said to ME ascii is pretty much ascii. After having played DF in adventure mode a bit now, I CAN sort of see what SOME of the complaints may be about. Compared to a game like ADOM, it is hard to distinguish what is what, where you are and where youa re going in DF. Having three different tiles for each terrain seems to actually HURT the presentation. Comes off kind of cluttered and I end up squinting real hard and hitting the "?" key to try and figure out which way I should be going and I STILL have no idea!

I would personally rather see simple green dots or whatever for grass, gray "^"s or whatever pinty ascii character for mountains, blue "~"s or whatever for water etc. so there is no mistaking what is what and which direction I might want to head.

But yeah...128 characters would be bad so maybe there is not much to be done about it and I will just get used to it.

Though I have not played a LOT yet, I am amazed by the sheer depth of the game(and it is only an ALPHA?!). I am torn between cackling with glee at the amount of shit we can do and simply repsonding like the old Dominos Pizza guy(from those 1980s commercials) and saying "Too much, man...what's your trip?"

[Somagu]

Bah, I personally like the diversity of all the tiles, it makes it looks less generic.

[Toady One]

Skel, there is an option (well-documented as usual...) to change all the `,'.`,'.`, stuff into ..........

go into "data\init\init.txt" and change varied ground tiles to NO.  This should help a bit.

[macbony]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Skel, there is an option (well-documented as usual...) to change all the `,'.`,'.`, stuff into ..........

go into "data\init\init.txt" and change varied ground tiles to NO.  This should help a bit.</STRONG>

I did this myself and it made the game much better for me. I just found my eyes glazed over whenever I'd look around because the different characters made it difficult to really focus on what was important. It does look better, but I think it's difficult from a gameplay standpoint.

[John Gaden]

While i didn't download it, and probably wont, i just want to say that Armok looks really cool.

[Chephren]

Heh, I downloaded this, and gave it ago.  It sure did seem buggy, at the same time though very interesting.  Just looking at the anatomy of a body is pretty insane, and I liked the 3d generation of the world.  Out of interest, what things can we expect to make it to adventurer mode in DF, and what not(outside the graphical mode)?  This seems like an interesting game, (if not a playable one) in its own right.

[Toady One]

It's really hard to say, since a lot of the details are superfluous compared to adding more core features.  It would be nice to add tissues, though most likely not density of hair on your little finger.  The mechanics underlying the magic system might be the same, but that's just a little language with variables and statements and so on.  I'm not sure what else there is.  Maybe dwarves needs flesh balls.