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[Byakugan01]

One issue that concerns me with storing tools in workshops is workshop clutter. Can we "store" the knives in a way that won't count towards clutter (think drawers), or would that be impractical/require a major rewrite of the code?

[SirHoneyBadger]

Maybe, as a compromise, the "storage" of items in a workshop could consist of a single example, for every task that workshop was capable of accommodating at a single time.

So cleaning fish, for example, would require only a single knife for every dwarf who could clean a fish in that shop, in the same period of time.

[Byakugan01]

Maybe, as a compromise, the "storage" of items in a workshop could consist of a single example, for every task that workshop was capable of accommodating at a single time.

So cleaning fish, for example, would require only a single knife for every dwarf who could clean a fish in that shop, in the same period of time.

I actually prefer the idea of the dwarf having it on them, though-for the reasons that have already been stated. A workshop can only accomodate one dwarf at a time though, so it would only ever need to have one knife kept in the shop at times-perhaps by using the "q" menu to switch whether a knife was kept in there on or off, making that a knife in essence part of the building.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, a question to ask is, what exactly does a "fishcleaning workshop" imply, in the framework of the DF universe?

The reason I ask is, if it's just a cleanable table, then it's just a matter of storing a few knives around there for any dwarf who walks in, and doesn't happen to have one. Not every dwarf in every Fortress should need to carry a knife, afterall, even if it sometimes seems like a good idea.

If it's more than that, if fish can be salted and smoked and turned into leather (edible or otherwise), otherwise processed, and even taxidermied, then yeah, there could very well be specialized tools, including special knives, that could stay with the workshop. But for basic fish cleaning, no I don't think it's necessary to have more than a sharp blade.

[Leartes]

Why people worry about clutter is incomprehendable to me - if you start assigning tools to jobs you could easily assign a tools-container within every workshop as well. Also you can create an cloth item to be worn were you can store owned tools as well. (And money)

And I agree a mixed solution seems to be best. There you can add quality to tools so that your master smith will carry around a high quality hammer as his personal tool and have some average hammers stored in the workshop for every novice smith. - The same goes of cause for fishcleaning, carpenting, masonry and other stuff.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Very good point about the master smith and the high quality hammer.

[Silverionmox]

All that is necessary is a chest or cabinet in the workshop to store the tools in, really. Or hooks in the wall, as soon as wall decorations are a possibility. Or a new piece of furniture: the tool rack.

[SirHoneyBadger]

All that is necessary is a chest or cabinet in the workshop to store the tools in, really. Or hooks in the wall, as soon as wall decorations are a possibility. Or a new piece of furniture: the tool rack.

New Material Request: Corkboard.

[chucks]

Tool racks are an awesome idea!

Would a distinction between tables and desks and workbenches provide a benefit to combat workshop homogenous layouts, or would it simply provide unnecessary complexity and micromanagement of workshop layouts?

[Silverionmox]

A desk is merely a combination of table and cabinet. A workbench could be a combination of a table and a mechanism, representing the screw to fasten things. Other than that, there are no functional differences. I would prefer to keep the furniture not too specialized, so you can produce some reserve tables and use them when and where necessary, rather than having to make specialized furniture for each workshop: that's just an unnecessary complication. Weapon rack and tool rack might even be combined into a rack and have a double function, depending on the place.

There are plenty of workshop elements that are rather specialized: grinding wheel, potter's wheel, loom, oven, etc. More in this thread and its links.

[Pilsu]

You need a little more than a hammer to forge. Lugging around your specialized tools everywhere is stupid too. Unless that is a trait of master blacksmiths, I can see guild membership going into their head to the point they demand their own customized engraved hammer as a status symbol

As for the workshop, let's keep taxidermy separate shall we? All you need is a table and a sharp fillet knife. If you smoke it, you use a completely separate "workshop" for that. Smoking meat and fish being kept in a separate workshop seems a bit more intuitive


Workshop not being cleaned properly should start spreading disease and miasma

[SirHoneyBadger]

As far as the hammer goes, yes on one hand it's a status symbol. On the other hand, I think the point trying to be made by Laertes is that it would be the smith's defensive weapon, as opposed to--or more likely, in addition to--a knife.

I agree that specialized tools should generally be kept in the workshop. Although it strikes me that if you could weaponize as many tools as possible--atleast to a minimal degree--they could then be used by dwarfs *inside* workshops, to defend themselves. You grab whatever's at hand, when your home is invaded.


"All you need is a table and a sharp fillet knife."

Pilsu, I don't disagree with you, and I certainly don't think you're wrong, but the problem with denying the Fish Workshop of additional tasks is that pretty soon, you realize all you need is a table (or even a log) and a knife to do everything.

It just doesn't compare well to all the other workshops. That's a problem.

Other than that, I don't think smoking or salting fish should really require a whole other workshop. Fish back then was typically eaten smoked or salted. There wasn't a good third option, unless you were desperate enough to eat it raw (which is where sushi came from). I do think that if you allow fish and meat to be smoked together (even though I can't imagine either would taste very good...), then people will do that, because it's more intuitive to do what's easier than what requires specialized knowledge of smoking meats.

I personally feel that part of the purpose of the game is to allow us players to take away something of the experience of what living in a Fortress might actually be like, and because of that, I think it's important that the game try to reflect the real facts, and guide us, as much as we guide it.

Keeping the smoked fish away from the smoked meat is only one example of that.

[Leartes]

Thanks HoneyBadger, the point with the smith is: I think it suffices for a forge to need an anvil and one tool (the hammer) and not three different hammers of different weigths, some tongs, rasps, a small furnace for heating up stuff etc. (well the furnace sounds ok if you have modular workshops). I feel most jobs should use one tool and smithing this is the hammer and a professional smith should have his very own tool to carry around, cherish, work with and defend himself with (if it is suitable for combat - a saw is most likely not).

The smallest change needed at the moment would be to introduce some tools and give every workshop a default storage room used for tools only.
A bigger change would be to change to buildup for a workshops to require a table and a chest/tool rack. (Maybe with an exception for the mason/carpenter).
And finally the goal is - in my opinion - to have different furniture grouped together and designating a workshop around it. Like I build a table and I can designate a fishery workshop (to stay on topic), if I build a chest/tool rack next to it and designate the workshop over both the workshop gets some storage room for tools. Then I build a barrel nearby and a workshop including that barrel gets some storage room to prevent clutter and keep the fish from rotting too fast. Possibly I could also build an aquarium to keep fish alive until processing them and maybe I add an oven (or however you call it) that adds the job-possibilty smoke fish.
In this scenario a workshop with several tablets in it (workplaces) could enable several dwarfs to work there simultaneously and to create a master/apprentice system.

[Pilsu]

Artificially inflating the fishery is uncalled for. You really need nothing but a knife and a desk. I'm all for salting the fish in the fishery but that raises the question where other kinds of meat were cured. I suppose you can tack that into the butchery but I do not know whether it's appropriate or particularly hygienic. At any rate, you can use the same equipment for smoking both meat and fish. Unless someone can speak with some authority on the matter, I can't justify not using a new workshop (Smokery?) for both types of meat, cheese and whatever else is smoked

Fixing fishing nets could be tacked onto the workshop in a modular fashion

As for the tools, abstraction is the exact opposite of the spirit of the game. Besides, gnomish death grip.

[chucks]

I actually would love to see a smokehouse/salthouse workshop that would preserve raw meat not immediately taken in by the kitchen for cooking.  You don't necessarily want to mix different types of meat (pork, poultry, fish, beef, etc.) during storage or preparation, but it's fine to assume that the dwarves would know that while working in the workshop.

As far as improving the fishery, I would like to see fishing tackle, nets, lobster pots, aquariums, barrels in use, but I do agree that a table and a knife is the bare minimum needed to clean and gut and prepare raw fish.