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Author Topic: Waterfall a bad idea?  (Read 1016 times)

Agnostic Paladin

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Waterfall a bad idea?
« on: June 09, 2009, 02:21:26 am »

So having recently become addicted to DF thanks to finding a helpful tutorial that actually allowed me to understand how to play, I've been reading the wiki, this site, and a few others. During which I've seen waterfalls mentioned as something dwarfs like. When I embarked at this site, I realized that it was perfect for creating a large cascade. There was a natural indentation in the cliff wall near the brook (don't ask me why the brook is on top of the mesa instead of down on the valley floor) that seemed perfect for the path of a waterfall to impress the dwarfs and all the visiting traders with. I figure set up the fortress right behind the main shaft, terrace the cliff face and stick the trade depot on a artificial arch right in front of the cascade. Nice tourist attraction to draw the rubes.

Of course, I was expecting the water to dry out before it spread this far. Now I'm wondering if I'll be drowning my fort? I'm certainly already worried that I'll no longer be able to chop trees or fish within a year or so.

So, my question is simple. How screwed am I?

edit: forgot to link to the map: http://www.mkv25.net/dfma/map-6008-ironlabors
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 02:23:26 am by Agnostic Paladin »
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FrickenMoron

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 02:49:47 am »

This thing is eventually going to flood the whole lower levels. The water is going to run out of the map edges I guess but you were pretty naive when digging such a huge hole into a stream/brook and thinking that it won't flood a huge area.

Next time install floodgates first :D or build a smaller water tunnel with a definitive route/exit out of the map.
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smjjames

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 03:07:55 am »

At least you eventually won't have to worry about goblins from that area. If you hurry, maybe you can make a sort of pier area out of it?

I don't think your fortress is actually in danger, but, who knows.
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Albedo

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 03:19:25 am »

Of course, I was expecting the water to dry out before it spread this far...

So, my question is simple. How screwed am I?

Because of your expectations, or your present situation?  (Hmmm, let's stick to the latter.)

Everyone is "naive" about something, but your expectations were, perhaps, a bit "over optimistic" considering all the warnings and stories of flooded fortresses scattered about.  It might have dried out if the flow had only been 1 tile wide, but 4-wide is a flooder.

You need to stop that water, and the clock is ticking.  If you can stop it before it covers the lower plain in a depth of 2/7, you're in good shape. Otherwise, it gets more complex.

You'll need to go up to that mesa, and pump the water out of the brook, detouring it all while you make repairs to the original idea.  (And this time, yes, put in some emergency shut-off valves.) Iirc 4-5 pumps should do the job.

You need to dig a channel or tunnel to the edge of the map - shortest is obviously near where the brook enters the map.  I'd suggest it be at least as wide as the brook, possibly one or two more to be on the safe side. Make sure there's room for your pumps.  Carve "fortifications" (F) in that last tile on the edge of the map. Add ramps or whatever to get your dwarfs out.

To fix it, you need to do something similar down on the lower plain - a run-off channel (or tunnel) to the edge of the map.  Or, if you add 4 floodgates, each w/ it's own lever, you might be able to regulate the flow so its self-drying, as originally planned.  The water has to expand out to 1/7 and then stay that way for a bit - it will happen, but how far it'll expand I'm not sure.

I love the idea, and you may be able to cut down on the FPS damage by reducing the flow/breadth of the cascade.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 03:22:31 am by Albedo »
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smjjames

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 03:24:22 am »

Or if you move quickly (designate all your dwarves as masons), you should be able to wall it off. I believe it won't actually overflow, right? I know logic dictates it will, but not sure considering DF physics.

Make an outflow channel area on the edge of the map, smooth and fortify the edge wall and it will flow out that way. It works, I've tried it. Not with a waterfall fix but an attempt to drain a brook, which wasn't successful, not sure why.
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FrickenMoron

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 03:29:28 am »

Or if you move quickly (designate all your dwarves as masons), you should be able to wall it off. I believe it won't actually overflow, right? I know logic dictates it will, but not sure considering DF physics.

Make an outflow channel area on the edge of the map, smooth and fortify the edge wall and it will flow out that way. It works, I've tried it. Not with a waterfall fix but an attempt to drain a brook, which wasn't successful, not sure why.

the water comes from a rather high up, pressurized water source. It will rise up to its source level if possible.
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Scruga

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 03:33:53 am »

Or if you move quickly (designate all your dwarves as masons), you should be able to wall it off. I believe it won't actually overflow, right? I know logic dictates it will, but not sure considering DF physics.

Make an outflow channel area on the edge of the map, smooth and fortify the edge wall and it will flow out that way. It works, I've tried it. Not with a waterfall fix but an attempt to drain a brook, which wasn't successful, not sure why.

the water comes from a rather high up, pressurized water source. It will rise up to its source level if possible.

One level below it's source IIRC
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smjjames

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2009, 03:36:29 am »

Or if you move quickly (designate all your dwarves as masons), you should be able to wall it off. I believe it won't actually overflow, right? I know logic dictates it will, but not sure considering DF physics.

Make an outflow channel area on the edge of the map, smooth and fortify the edge wall and it will flow out that way. It works, I've tried it. Not with a waterfall fix but an attempt to drain a brook, which wasn't successful, not sure why.

the water comes from a rather high up, pressurized water source. It will rise up to its source level if possible.

Yea you're right. Walling it off will help to contain it though and if you make all of your dwarves masons, it will get built pretty quick. The Dwarf Manager utility would be a big help in this case if you don't use it already.

@Scruga, it's three levels below the source, but since it will just run off the map, it won't be able to actually fill up the z level.

Edit: actually, its five levels, but my point still stands and it looks like the water won't actually be able to get into his fortress.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 03:40:48 am by smjjames »
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Scruga

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2009, 03:46:21 am »

i was trying to explain this. I'm not refering to the map, i'm just trying to state that water will rise to 1 level below it's original source:

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New question! If I were to remove elves [INTELLIGENT] tag in the raws, would it work?
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Neruz

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2009, 04:38:20 am »

I suggest you start teaching your dwarves to swim.

zooeyglass

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2009, 07:03:16 am »

or try to splice carp genes into the dorf gene pool so they get gills.

how does one go about encouraging dwarfs to learn to swim?

EDIT: To train swimming skill, find a pool of shallow water (preferably depth 4, which is safe) or a body of water with slopes (such as a lake). The speed of training seems to vary depending on the strength of the current; higher levels of water usually mean more current, and more pushing of your character around. Brooks count as ground tiles, you can't swim in them. - from the wiki

EDIT 2: There are plenty of swimming tips on the wiki, how lovely!

« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 07:07:44 am by zooeyglass »
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Byakugan01

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2009, 07:06:08 am »

Drop super dwarvenly tough dwarves in and tell them to not drown or get too injured to die, in my experience at least.
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Neruz

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2009, 07:28:15 am »

I make a chamber, drop a bunch of dorfs in, close the doors and fill it full of 4/7 water.

I then make them run backwards and forwards dumping stones until they can swim decently.

Soralin

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2009, 08:51:31 am »

At first I didn't see the problem, "Ok, so it's a bit messy, but it all drains off into the ocean at the end."  And then I looked down a level "Oh wait, that isn't the ocean."

If you want to make it looks nice, you could carve a river down at the bottom.  Unfortunately you can't remove ground from the edge of the map, but you can do this:  Carve down several layers deep near the edge of the map until you get down into rock, then smooth the rock over, then turn it into fortifications.  Then channel a river from where your waterfall hits the ground to the edge of the map there, and it should flow nicely away.  I suggest doing the same where the waterfall is falling down, channel the areas down a layer, so the water is always a layer below the surrounding rock, and it should flow more in a straight path if that's what you want.

Although doing that might be a bit difficult with the river still flowing, so to do something about that, I suggest constructing a screw pump, or a few of them, along where your diverted river is, and power them (waterwheels or windmills recommended, you can use dwarves to pump them directly if you're in a hurry, but they can be unreliable if they run off while you're in the middle of doing something in the channel).  And then you can bring people into the dry channel and build a wall, or build floodgates, or a drawbridge that can raise, hook them up to a lever, and then you'll be able to control if your side passage is open or closed.  At which point you shouldn't need the pumps or power anymore, you can keep them there, or disassemble them for parts, or put them to other used.
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Agnostic Paladin

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Re: Waterfall a bad idea?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2009, 09:09:17 am »

I suggest you start teaching your dwarves to swim.

Well, my miners at least are getting some experience from trying to get the ores and gems at the back of the cascade on some of the z-levels. Lots of 4 & 5 deep squares for them to try and get past. The masons as well, since I had to try and divert the fall a little bit away from the left side with the wall sections as I was getting splash onto the bridge. Actually, the woodcutters as well until I noticed that I still had trees marked in the middle of the flooded valley.

At least you eventually won't have to worry about goblins from that area. If you hurry, maybe you can make a sort of pier area out of it?

I don't think your fortress is actually in danger, but, who knows.

Haven't seen any goblins; couple of snatchers, but since I've almost always got a caravan right at the fortress entrance, they haven't lived long. Maybe I can drown some of the damned unicorns though. Vicious bastards killed my dogs and my hunter in the first season.

At first I didn't see the problem, "Ok, so it's a bit messy, but it all drains off into the ocean at the end."  And then I looked down a level "Oh wait, that isn't the ocean."

Apparently it's going to be the ocean soon enough :)


Thanks for the advice everyone; at least I learned something about the water flow in the game. Although given the way that it cut my frame rate by over half, I don't know if I'll have the patience to try and fix it. Maybe next time I get a nice setup like that, I'll prepare the waterfall properly before pulling the trigger.
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