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[Rhodan]

I still haven't seen ANY example of an RPG where stat or ability based character development is not a central gameplay aspect.
Any article, Wikipedia or not, mentions stats as a major aspect of RPGs, there is not a single big RPG out there that does not have characters defined by stats and/or abilities in a way that influences the success of the character beyond player skill.

The only arguments so far are 2 games, which would suddenly lose their RPG status when you take out the stats (Rise of the Argonauts becomes a mere action game, SS13 becomes an chatroom world with RP innit), and beside-the-point arguments that roleplay can be done without stats, which is not the discussion, this discussion is about RPGs.

All refutes so far have been minuscule compared the context they were ripped out from.  Roleplaying is an important aspect of RPGs, but without the stats it'll never be an RPG.

Go out there, go read stuff, look things up, ask around about this on RPG forums and all your friends that play RPGs other than SS13 and ask them if any game with roleplay but no character stats can possibly be an actual RPG.  RPG, not RP, as these seem to be confused quite a lot.

[Yanlin]

I still haven't seen ANY example of an RPG where stat or ability based character development is not a central gameplay aspect.
Any article, Wikipedia or not, mentions stats as a major aspect of RPGs, there is not a single big RPG out there that does not have characters defined by stats and/or abilities in a way that influences the success of the character beyond player skill.

The only arguments so far are 2 games, which would suddenly lose their RPG status when you take out the stats (Rise of the Argonauts becomes a mere action game, SS13 becomes an chatroom world with RP innit), and beside-the-point arguments that roleplay can be done without stats, which is not the discussion, this discussion is about RPGs.

All refutes so far have been minuscule compared the context they were ripped out from.  Roleplaying is an important aspect of RPGs, but without the stats it'll never be an RPG.

Go out there, go read stuff, look things up, ask around about this on RPG forums and all your friends that play RPGs other than SS13 and ask them if any game with roleplay but no character stats can possibly be an actual RPG.  RPG, not RP, as these seem to be confused quite a lot.

We gave you 2 RPGs that didn't have stats as a central gameplay mechanic and you just called them non-RPGs.

Seriously. Game != stats. Roleplaying game != stats. Stats exist EVERYWHERE. But you don't need skill levels or character traits to RP a character. Only if you cannot imagine a character for yourself.

SS13. I generally roleplay an extremely skilled engineer with no tolerance for bad work or a captain with a seriously liberal bias.

The only stats are imagined by the players. You can roleplay that you don't know how to operate the DNA machine if you're a janitor. In fact, that's expected. We generally frown upon asspulling knowledge. But SS13 is staffed by the best of the best. It is expected that the Captain should be qualified in pretty much everything. Otherwise why would he be captain?

[Sowelu]

Rise of the Argonauts sounds more like a dating sim to me.

So did you dismiss my whole argument because you falsely think it's a dating sim?

Well I played it. I can honestly say it's NOT a dating sim. Mostly because there is no romantic tension throughout the whole game.

Oh, now you're just being silly.  You're going on about how you build favor with four different gods.  It's the mechanics I'm talking about, not the plot. 

[Rhodan]

If the players keep track of all the stats by imagining them, then they're playing an RPG "using" SS13 as their game board.  That's what SS13 actually is, a big game board on which you can move your pieces around while you RP around it.  SS13 keeps track of stats, by the way, just not all of them to make a complete character in itself.  It tracks health, equipment, (dis)abilities and more, and those are central to the game's mechanics.
So, well, in a way I admit SS13 is an RPG if you take the entire experience beyond the software itself into account.  It's sort of a medium for good ol' tabletop RPGs except online, and the stats are kept track off by the players using the role you get assigned or pick at the start.  So you're correct, I did not really think about how the game is more than the software, so when the stats are outside the game the whole can still be an RPG.

As for Rise of the Argonauts, it's an action-RPG.  The RPG elements are the traits, I read up about them and they indeed form some sort of character development.  Even though this is very limited, current usage of the them RPG seems to allow it.  It used to be that 'realtime combat' was unheard of in RPGs.  And Jason is probably a very pre-defined character so it's not very imaginative RP.
Take away the traits/favors and noone will ever call it an RPG though.

Stats do indeed exist everywhere, but the whole point is not just stats, but stats that define the character.  These also exist everywhere, everyone can be (approximately) defined by statistics, and every RP character can be put on a character sheet, listing all but perhaps its personality (besides maybe basic traits for that) and backstory.
If these kind of stats are not present in the game, the character is not present inside the game mechanics, it's only present in the player's imagination.  This makes the game not an RPG as there is no RP *in* the game.  The game could still be used to play an RPG game with, using the game as the world to play in, like SS13 or Second Life or even a forum RPG.

Recap:  The character defining information has to be in the game and react with the game mechanics in order for the game to be an RPG.  If they're outside the game, the game can only be an RPG if it is specifically designed as an aide for a larger RPG experience.

[Chutney]

What Rhodan has been trying to say, but hasn't said yet, is that in order to have an RPG you need to play the role of the character, not roleplay whatever you want. This definition is made by stats and skills and restrictions made by the game on the character.
If the game has you playing a small kid, but through your own skill you happened to defeat a large demon that wasn't supposed to be beatable, you're not playing the role of the small kid. You're playing YOUR role for the small kid. That's why characters have a strength or health stat. To stop them from acting outside of their role.
If your stats have no effect on the outcome, then you aren't playing the role, you're playing your role.

[Vendayn]

Well, this is definitely an old thread. But, it was first to come up on search, and I don't want to make a new thread for it.

But, Ryzom is on Steam now

http://store.steampowered.com/app/373720/

And in-game its very active, I'd say as active as the popular Everquest 2 servers are. Which is awesome, because one of the HUGE issues with the game was a severe lack of players. I played Ryzom a year ago, and literally only one single person on tutorial island was with me, and global chat was pretty much dead.

Hopefully it being on Steam, it does better and they are able to do more updates for it. Ryzom is actually a really good, unique MMO. And only MMO I played where animals and AI actually have...well...AI

Animals come up to you and examine you, animals migrate, there are in-game seasons. Its a very immersive game world, and even singleplayer games, animals even to this day in modern games, don't come up and examine you or interact with each other. Closest is MAYBE a modded Skyrim where you get animal AI mods, but even then its pretty basic compared to Ryzom.

[Akura]

I tried this a few months ago. I found it to be fairly laggy, and mobs could apparently kill you from further than you'd assume they'd be able to. I think there was a few other issues that made me lost interest in it as well.

[Vendayn]

Personally haven't had much of an issue with lag. No different than EVE, WoW or most other MMOs.

But, I have experienced mobs killing me from afar, when they aren't even close to me. Not common, but it is annoying. Though if I grouped, it be a lot better and Ryzom is a group focused MMO. But I do good enough solo, that I mostly die from AI killing me when they aren't close. So yeah I agree, that is annoying. It happens in WoW and GW2 as well (though WoW is the worst for that), always makes me really annoyed.

and no jumping is a turn off for many in Ryzom, though doesn't appear to be much of an issue with steam users.

[Criptfeind]

It's interesting to see this old game getting a breath of fresh air. I played this game for a bit a few years back (which I just accidentally bumped my old thread on it, whoops!  ). I'm wondering, with whoever owns the game now caring enough to get it put up on steam, does anyone know how much work has been done on it recently? When I played back in 2013 although it had a lot of promise it was seriously lacking polish, although the tutorial area was okay (even if the quests were boring and generic) once I got out into the main game world it just felt like a... Very unfinished game. Not really anything interesting to do or anything, which eventually killed my interest in it. Has more work gone into content in the pass few years?

[Vendayn]

It's interesting to see this old game getting a breath of fresh air. I played this game for a bit a few years back (which I just accidentally bumped my old thread on it, whoops!  ). I'm wondering, with whoever owns the game now caring enough to get it put up on steam, does anyone know how much work has been done on it recently? When I played back in 2013 although it had a lot of promise it was seriously lacking polish, although the tutorial area was okay (even if the quests were boring and generic) once I got out into the main game world it just felt like a... Very unfinished game. Not really anything interesting to do or anything, which eventually killed my interest in it. Has more work gone into content in the pass few years?

From what I've been told, it hasn't been updated that much. Though with steam release, they upgraded textures and some other stuff like bloom. And since I last played seriously, around actually 3 years ago as well. Think 2013, they added a new story mission series or something. I dunno, since I'm still on the island and the person didn't say much about it. But you can pick up task quests in the city, and get money/exp and a bit of guidance with those. Pretty much like WoW quests: kill this x # of times, collect this, craft that, harvest that. Basic missions, but like I said, do give some structure to things. Plus you can do faction quests.

Sadly, it doesn't sound like it has made very many changes since 2013. Besides one or two new story mission series to go through. I think it suffered massive issues with population (when I briefly tried it a year ago, it was like playing (literally) a singleplayer RPG, so they had very limited funding to do much with the game.

What I'll be most curious about, since that was my other big issue with the game (besides population), is the lack of any significant updates. Is if they'll be successful enough from Steam to start actually making the game.

I mean, its had plenty of GM made events and player made events that have progressed the storyline in Ryzom (that is pretty much influenced by the players)...but that isn't permanent content to do, and gotta be on at right time, right place for that. But I kept checking back every few months to see...no updates lol.

So that is definitely a big negative, unless steam lets them be a success to start updating the game. There is one older free to play MMO, its in 10 top played free games on steam site. And before it was on steam, it was pretty dead as well and very little updates, and a great lack of funding. It got released on steam, and well, then it hit top 10 free games on steam, and was able to start cranking out a lot more updates.

Kinda hoping same happens to Ryzom.