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Author Topic: SETI and communication fail  (Read 3760 times)

Cthulhu

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 12:04:00 am »

I bet if aliens landed a group would declare that they aren't sentient and try to enslave them. Either that or a group of religious extremists (probably christian) would try and massacre them because they don't believe in their god.

Or they would have sort of fucked up ritual at the negotiation table (like eating a baby) which would degenerate into one side being horribly offended and it breaking into war.

Of course if aliens did land, the world might degenerate into world war because they landed in Russia and America deciding that Russia is hiding alien technology, thus they must be destroyed before they find a way to utilize this technology.

You have a strange perception of the world.
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Muz

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2009, 12:12:18 am »

I think we have better things to do than look for alien life. Sure, there's probably some of them out there, but who knows whether they have radio frequency technology at all. 99.99999% haven't advanced to a stage where they can make tools.

The remaining semi-intelligent life forms would probably not have figured out how to manipulate electromagnetic waves and possibly it would be far too weak for us to detect. And if we did receive a response, we wouldn't be able to send one back any time soon.

I say we should invent space ships and find them properly, instead of this silly thing about trying to detect them. Who would gamble a few million on something that has almost no chance of happening and a very poor payout? At least with space ships that can travel just within the system, we'd have never run out of raw materials again. And other stuff.

The "what would we do if we found aliens" is what they should've thought about before starting the program.
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Cthulhu

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2009, 12:21:30 am »

So trolling for radio and other signals is less of a time and money sink than flying to other planets and searching them for life?
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MrWiggles

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2009, 12:24:03 am »

I like SETI, I send my spare cycles towards seti when the LHC isn't turned on.

Its my favorite postivish psedo science.
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Sergius

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2009, 02:42:59 am »

If we discovered aliens, I would endeavor to be all out of gum.
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chaoticag

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2009, 08:40:34 am »

I would like to point out that there are numerous acounts of people being abducted and probed. Aliens exist: they come to Earth to shoot pornos.
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Yanlin

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 12:59:15 pm »

One is not prime.
And yes, mathematical sequences are a universal language among sentients. Most likely.

Prime number: Divisible by itself and 1 while still maintaining a result with no numbers after the decimal point. (I forgot the technical term)

1/1 =1

1/1 =1.

Prime number.
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Cthulhu

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2009, 01:06:15 pm »

If we discovered aliens, I would endeavor to be all out of gum.


I see what you did there.
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SolarShado

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 01:26:26 pm »

a result with no numbers after the decimal point. (I forgot the technical term)

Integer, or just say "whole number".

And while you make a good point, I believe 1 is generally not included on a list of primes. I'm not sure why.
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chaoticag

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 02:14:41 pm »

a result with no numbers after the decimal point. (I forgot the technical term)

Integer, or just say "whole number".

And while you make a good point, I believe 1 is generally not included on a list of primes. I'm not sure why.
A prime number is divisable by one and itself. One is something of a weird case, because one is itself.

One generally seems to fit the pattern of prime numbers though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam_spiral
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Sowelu

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 02:26:40 pm »

Prime = divisible by exactly two numbers, itself and 1.  1 is only divisible by one number.  This is useful when you need to find the factors of a number:  You keep dividing out the primes.  If 1 was prime, you'd keep dividing the number by 1, and you'd never be done.

And yeah, there's a ton we could gain out of communications if we restrict ourselves to math.  Once you establish a unary and then binary system through primes or fibonacci or something, you can establish symbols for mathematical operations (I've seen people who already did that exercise with specific regard to SETI).  Then you start firing off interesting facts at the other guy, starting with 1+1=2, going through Euler's identity (easy if you establish symbols, and easy enough to establish, say Pi:   (unique symbol) (equals) (first ten digits of pi in binary) (symbol for 'continues'))

Once you get that far, start flinging physics or chem facts.  A list of all the atomic weights would be a good one.  See how far you can go!  Who has made the highest atomic numbered element?  If the other guys are up to the 200s, but they haven't made element 162, I'm sure someone can derive some interesting facts there.

You can start encoding time, and specifically, mathematical constants WRT time.  Humanity establishes a time symbol for "In our understanding, the time that the universe started"; alien species does the same, but a different symbol.  (Time isn't hard to represent; you'd be dealing with it anyway once you said anything involving frequencies and that would be a very early thing.)  Humanity says "We think that 0.5 nanoseconds after the start of the universe, this constant was this" and the aliens respond "We think that 0.5 nanoseconds after the start of the universe, that constant was THIS", and maybe they introduce some equations to prove their points.  With the signal lag, you can't have much of a conversation...but stream-of-consciousness would really work great for this.

Besides, engineers are good at understanding constants.  If you say to a US engineer "What comes to mind when I say...60", he'll probably say "Hertz", and once you make a few other references, it's easy to understand what symbols are involved.  You fling enough facts that are interconnected, and even with a 40 year time lag, you'll be able to make sense of things even with no time lag.  And you keep updating your facts and sending them when you learn new stuff.  There's a WHOLE LOT of constants that we have in common, some of them part of the universe, some of the part of the signal we send.  And if you think defining 'one second' is hard, just say "9,192,631,770 (symbol 1) x Cesium = (symbol 2).  456 x (symbol 2).  456 x (symbol 2)."  And pretty soon they notice "Hey, if symbol 1 refers to the period of state transitions of an atom, and symbol 2 is a quantity of time, then 456 x that symbol 2 is the frequency we're receiving on!  Symbol 2 must be a constant they use."

The first thing you talk about will be science, clearly.  But even then, you can start sending SOME culture.  Remember, it's easiest to learn a language when you are fully immersed in it.  Just start encoding some black-and-white movies or something, specifically designed to illustrate our life, and festooned with special symbols EVERYWHERE.  Give them 'a week in the life of a human'.  They will quickly figure out "Oh, they seem to have some activity cycle along the lines of 24 hours, that adds up with the rotation of their planet we noticed from their transmissions, that makes sense.  Oh, they seem to have a basic family structure, and we can assume that there are analogues like ~hive-mother~.  What small families."  Establish cultural words through picture books, then start sending them more cultural information with some kind of set notation.  "Okay.  We keep seeing A and B together.  And when we see them together, we see lots of symbol C things, too.  This says that symbol D contains one A, one B, one or more C.  Hey neat, family unit (oversimplified but we kind of assumed that).  A and B seem to have these body parts with their own symbols.  Hey, now they're breaking out the chemistry symbols.  This body part on A catalyzed with this body part on B produces C.  Oh hey, maybe that's reproduction."

The only hard part is going to be establishing a symbol for "fiction".  VERY IMPORTANT.  Probably the most time consuming part because you need to wait for a response.  You want to make sure they understand what fiction is very, very well before you start telling them stories.  But once you've done that, you start with Dick & Jane and you just go from there.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:34:26 pm by Sowelu »
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MrWiggles

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2009, 03:35:02 pm »

One, as stated by the poster above breaks math if its used a prime. One, is an especial number in algebra. It called the Unit if I remember correctly.
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Jreengus

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2009, 03:35:58 pm »

Spoiler: long post (click to show/hide)
It's like you leached what I was thinking out of my mind and injected it into the intertubes
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Cthulhu

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2009, 04:19:42 pm »

Yeah, I've always thought that if I were abducted by aliens and they were testing me to see if I were sentient, I'd try to create some kind of periodic table, but the prime numbers thing is probably more my speed.  I'll remember this for when I get abducted by aliens.
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umiman

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Re: SETI and communication fail
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2009, 04:47:55 pm »

When contacting alien species regardless of their type or origin, we must use the age old, all-encompassing greeting that transcends all lingual and mental barriers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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