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[jaked122]

Well, one dwarf's "thief" is another human's "adventurer".

Whoa there.  These are dwarves, not hobbits or halflings or gnomes or kenders.  They believe in dwarven justice!

that explains why when I set a massive fire to the fort, after I died the judge reversed time so I wouldn't be born.

[Leafsnail]

The spymaster noble sounds interesting.  Of course, once you are able to retaliate against the goblins/ orcs/ kobolds, there could maybe be a way of training your own spies.  Of course, you'd have to capture and brainwash a goblin/ orc/ kobold first.

[jaked122]

chucks: Exactly, although I may not have written that as clear as possible. I see dwarfs being a lot less tolerant of things like grave robbing, stealing sacred jewels from idols, mugging dragons, and all those staples of heroic fantasy, than humans would be.

mugging dragons?? do you mean the fortress' war dragons?

[chinkeeyong]

mugging dragons?? do you mean the fortress' war dragons?

No, he means the habit of adventurers to journey to dragon caves, beat the stuffing out of the existing inhabitants, and take back their hard-gotten loot, which seems to be prevalent in fantasy literature.

[Sabre_Justice]

Spy sappin' mah... nah, too obvious.

I gotta say,the stories of a saboteur managing to destroy the fortress rather than the player would be quite hilarious.

[Byakugan01]

Spy sappin' mah... nah, too obvious.

I gotta say,the stories of a saboteur managing to destroy the fortress rather than the player would be quite hilarious.

The saboteur has alot of work cut out for him...I typically spiral within the first ten years. And the destruction is grand and near total. You know it's bad when you consider opening the doors to let the orcs IN to clean out the mess.

[kalida99]

How about spys come to your fort with different professions, rather than
Urist McHauler
instead
Urist McSworddwarf

each spyin on different aspects of your fort,
IE: metalsmiths to see your stockpiles of weapons, armor, and ores
Engineers to sabotage your catapaults ballistas, etc, and weaken parts of walls for troops to break through

[RedWarrior0]

If I follow what you're saying correctly, a hauler would see stockpile placement and overall layout ("if we take this corridor, we can cut off their booze"), a military dwarf would study weapons, tactics, fighting styles, armor, and general strategy ("when we elephant charge, alternating sections of their formation drop back in an attempt to flank the elephants who charge those sections"), and a cook-saboteur would put poison in the food he makes ("Let's see how they like a nice *Nightshade Roast*").

[kalida99]

If I follow what you're saying correctly, a hauler would see stockpile placement and overall layout ("if we take this corridor, we can cut off their booze"), a military dwarf would study weapons, tactics, fighting styles, armor, and general strategy ("when we elephant charge, alternating sections of their formation drop back in an attempt to flank the elephants who charge those sections"), and a cook-saboteur would put poison in the food he makes ("Let's see how they like a nice *Nightshade Roast*").

Exactly, only with more sabotage.
IE: that new weaponsmith your so eager to train to legendary actually is making defective gear (Armor that falls apart mid battle, crossbows that have easily snapping strings, hammers that the head falls off etc)
or the carpenter that makes barrels that fall apart when someone puts something in them, Wasting your vital wood stocks

[Byakugan01]

They should be smart enough not to do that if they're the only one performing the task, however-otherwise it would be too easy to spot urist mcspy. Maybe be make weapons that are just *Slightly* more brittle than normal in that situation.

[Elliott_Thinas]

I think saboteurs making defective goods might be going too far. Saboteurs should do their work properly but in their spare time get ready for one big sabotage (i.e setting fire to the booze stockpile, breaking your floodgates, poisoning your well), at which point you would be alerted to the actions of the saboteur (although it would be too late to prevent the damage). The only way to avoid this would be to have your guards investigating various people and making good use of their judge of intent (vs. the saboteur's Liar skill).

[Byakugan01]

What about the good cop/bad cop routine? A dwarf with high "intimidator" skill would be the bad cop, while a good persuader would be the good cop.

[Felblood]

In addition to these guys, I'd like to suggest another type of secretly undesirable immigrant.

Serial Killers.

While all dwarves turn homicidal when their needs go unmet, these guys have a pathological compulsion to kill, that can surface even when their lives are otherwise going well.

Urist SlasherSmile cancels butcher animal: Committing Murder.

The point is to make these guys different from your regular brand axe murderer, so I propose making them sneaky like the spies and thieves above.

It'd probably be best to work out all the kinks with thieves before adding in serial slashers, but when somebody says "Psychological Crime Thriller" you know the villain isn't anything as pedestrian as a kleptomaniac.

To keep the suspicion moving around, native children might even grow up to be killers. It's not like players aren't used to the idea that their beloved pets might go mad and kill their neighbors.

If that's too much of a random penalty, it could be an alternative form of insanity. Getting away with a crime even gives happy thoughts, so if sneaky guys ever get sneaky enough, these mentally broken madmen could be the prime candidates for surviving a spiral. That's an all new reason for immigrants to shun spiraled forts.

In keeping with the fantasy theme, the need to kill could be triggered by lunar cycles, making them real lunatics. I know we don't have much in the way of celestial events yet, it's just a thought.

[Elliott_Thinas]

Haha Fellblood I think your idea might already be in developement. I remember hearing about dwarves who would commit crimes other than failing noble demands, such as theft, or murdering their grudges. Maybe some dwarves would be born with a love for killing, and unless you put them into your army, watch out.

[Leafsnail]

I was thinking about it - when spies and thieves are discovered, they have a reason to run away (to give information or take their goods back).  However, when the saboteur is discovered, he has no real reason to run away.  So maybe, when discovered, he could make a beeline for your booze stockpile for one last kamikaze act of destruction...