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Author Topic: Spies, thieves, and lies.  (Read 4862 times)

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2009, 02:37:06 am »

That Urist really gets around.


Our clerks having books (whatever that means to a dwarf--copper plates, maybe?), and those books containing information that would actually be important to other Civs, is another good idea.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2009, 02:24:06 pm »

Quote
I don't think they should be sent by other Nations, though, so Elliott_Thinas I think is right about this not being a political option, unless ofcourse there are real political reason for stealing something, which does sometimes occur.
Imagine if a thief gets a whole bag full of masterwork items.  Let's say he gets a few masterwork beds from you carpenter, some doors from your mason, a few masterful clothes from your clothier.  Let's say he tracks down some masterwork bags and steals those too, and even scoops up an artifact made by your legendary weaponsmith, and another artifact made by your legendary armourer.  Now, bear in mind that the maximum penalty for the "has suffered the travesty of art defacement" is 1000.  Enjoy your tantrumming hellhole.

Of course, having items that are worth stealing, such as record books or treasures would be even better.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2009, 03:30:00 pm »

I don't know that defacement would = theft. But vandalism is an option (and seems more likely as a "political" or even military tool (as in sabotage). Ofcourse, lifting the items for your side could still be a politio/military goal.

If you have actual effective means to guard against such a multitude of heinous acts, and fail to do so that many times, I think at that point you'd probably deserve what you got.

Although I could also see our dwarfs coming after you, instead of tantruming (if they figure out who did it), once the scope of the game got larger.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2009, 03:14:29 pm »

I don't know that defacement would = theft. But vandalism is an option (and seems more likely as a "political" or even military tool (as in sabotage). Ofcourse, lifting the items for your side could still be a politio/military goal.

If you have actual effective means to guard against such a multitude of heinous acts, and fail to do so that many times, I think at that point you'd probably deserve what you got.

Although I could also see our dwarfs coming after you, instead of tantruming (if they figure out who did it), once the scope of the game got larger.
A kobold thief stealing an item counts as defacement, so a hidden spy type thief stealing an item probably would too.
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Elliott_Thinas

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2009, 03:25:47 pm »

I think in addition to the spies you were suggesting assassins might also be sick. A peasant arrives and lives a normal life, but if they get a good chance, and are close to the count, they draw a dagger, reveal that they are an enemy assassin and try to kill the head nobles. At this point the noble guard would try to kill the assassin. Earlier on, guards with a good judge of intent might be able to unmask the assassin before they get this chance. Either way, it would be pretty awesome for a random hauler to whip out a -Steel Dagger- a stab your nobles.
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Byakugan01

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2009, 05:42:43 pm »

If the noble is known for being the cause of many hammering, the craftsdwarves/peasantry may actually try and HELP them if they find out he's here to kill Count WantsAdamantineOnADesertMap-the nobility would actually have to be careful in maintaining their popularity, and have to check and make sure they don't issue mandates or make demands that are impossible to fulfill. One look at the coroner's inquiry should be enough to give adamantine loving nobles pause.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2009, 01:40:10 pm »

Yeah, I was thinking of assasins too.  I hear that next update will make nobles vitally useful for controlling an empire, so that could be a target.  Also, your fortress will be able to appoint a "Champion" who will be like a powerful defender of your fortress, and an assasin killing him could have a crippling moral penalty on your military.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2009, 08:56:28 am »

Spymaster Noble: The keen-minded individual that runs your espionage and anti-assassination network.

This heroic mastermind is in charge of a vast network of antiespionage agents and counterintelligence infiltrators, that spans the Kingdom.

(Actually, that's all lies. Your Spymaster Noble is the handsome, charismatic, virtuous and brave-but slightly baffled-dupe that your real spymaster-who holds no public rank, and who is about as noticeable as a sack of potatoes on the warehouse floor of a potato chip factory-hires to perform public functions, and take knives in the back, while the real spymaster--who poses as Slappy McNobody, the Spymaster Noble's secretary--does the real work of keeping your Fortress safe.).
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Pyrophoricity

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2009, 10:10:07 am »

If espionage does enter the game could be we also see sleeper agents?

Meng Everydwarf might look like a normal mild mannered farmer but when he hears a particular phrase, or even just after an amount of time, he becomes a highly trained assassin tasked with eliminating several key dwarves.

Not forgetting of course that in his time in the fortress Meng has gained knowledge of all escape routes and trap locations...

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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2009, 10:39:09 am »

Well--and that's not a bad idea, Pyrophoricity--how would we defend from such a dwarf?

Considering that we have personalities, how do they react with each other, as far as trust is concerned? What makes one dwarf trust another? In what ways do they trust each other? And what removes that trust?

If Meng has been born in the Fortress, if everyone knows him and if he has a good reputation, then he'd own a maximum amount of trust from the maximum amount of dwarfs. But if that's the case, how did he become a double-agent? If those reasons for trust don't exist, then how useful a sleeper would he be?

Were his parents sleeper agents, too? What were their reputations? What made Meng a killer of his fellow dwarf? Is his motivation political? Religious? Monetary? Or something else?

As far as use goes, in what way would key dwarfs and vital information be protected? What safeguards could we put in place, against this sort of thing? Could we outline areas of increasing security? Assign not only bodyguards, but also middle personnel, something like secretaries to public officials? If we can assign secretaries, can they then make appointments?
Can they be bribed or otherwise corrupted?
What does a dwarf have to do to be put in such a position of trust?

If key dwarfs are at risk, would assassins have the ability to track their regular movements? If they can, then ambushes might be plotted at points along those regular routes, where the key dwarf would be most vulnerable. Bodyguards might be taken out, or simply diverted/distracted from their charges. Maybe the bodyguards themselves could be corrupted, somehow? Is anyone completely incorruptible? If so, why?

What would motivate a key dwarf to put themselves at risk? What sort of "risky" dwarfs would they associate with, if any? What events would blur the distinctions between dwarfs "of a certain social position", and everybody else?

Would an assassin have the wherewithal to kill, and then commit suicide, even if they aren't in immediate risk of capture? If not, then a successful assassination might lead to the Fortress being locked down. Suspects might be interviewed. Trust issues might again be invoked. Our dwarfs can't take photos, and fingerprints haven't been invented yet--let alone data banks, so what kind of memory do they have? And what kind of memory aids? A successful assassin might return again and again, maybe in disguise. How like one dwarf does another dwarf look? What if the assassin is a human or an elf? Could dwarfs be expected to tell them apart?

How professional are the Professionals? Would successful assassins keep using the same tried-and-true methods? Would they notice that they were becoming more distinctive over time, or would they choose to ignore the risks, in favor of being an individual? Would their employers kill the killers?
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Pyrophoricity

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2009, 12:03:12 pm »

A good question SirHoneyBadger, in fact a series of good questions.

My inital thought would perhaps be a personality trait, though players could easily scan immigrants for "the sleeper agent trait" perhaps it could develop, perhaps after two seasons the dwarf's true colours are revealed rather than when he first arrives.

As for the why, well as you mentioned, political, religious and even social reasons. My approach would be that a sleeper agent is generally a tool to the means and so while involved in the cause they promote they aren't the head of it. As such I'd imagine sleeper agents would be sent to the fort rather than be born there.

You raise an interesting point about trust and I honestly have no real solution, dwarves in the military together would undoubtably form stronger bonds then those who meet while standing by the fountain. It would make sense for dwarves closer to the agent to have a better idea of that dwarves true intentions.

Perhaps much like dwarves have the "grudge" status with enemy dwarves, suspected sleeper agents could have the "Suspect" status.

In essence, vigilance is the best form of defence, large impersonal forts will face more inflitration than a small tight knit fort. I realise that barely answers any of your questions, I'm just throwing some ideas out, see if any stick  :)


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Samus1111111

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2009, 12:32:08 pm »

I really like the idea of infiltrators, but I don't think that they will be implemented (if they are) any time soon.

However, if you're up to it, I would recomend a mod ;D
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2009, 01:09:22 pm »

Just some things to think about.

As far as tags go, I disagree with that. I don't think there should be anything that we, as players, can detect. If we could (an unrealistic option, anyway) it would just promote us to contriving "accidental" deaths for the dwarf in question (more contrived unreality).

Migrant dwarfs might have some kind of "suspect tag" to remind you that they're new, but I think it should be all migrants. 

Trust might be added to dwarfs' personalities. Dwarfs might have a list of friends, and they might have a list of dwarfs they trust, and the two lists may not always correlate. Untrusted dwarfs might be viewed with suspicion, and that suspicion might impose social limits on the suspected one.
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jaked122

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2009, 06:59:29 pm »

Nominating one of them as captain would be fun. :)
Hehe.  He would have a strangely irrational fear of his own guards though.
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jaked122

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Re: Spies, thieves, and lies.
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2009, 07:01:05 pm »

Another cool aspect of spies might be the need to the patrol the halls; often people have large chunks of fortress that is rarely used and spies could potentially use these areas to hide out. Creating a need to periodically send soldiers to investigate.

So, perhaps as is fitting, if a fort is running at full capacity and everyone is moving it's hard for a spy to stay out of sight but when things quite down the military have to keep a watchful eye on the shadows.


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